tournament hand

[ACE2M]

25 players remain, Money at 8, ave chips = 12,500.


Blinds at 400/800 shortly going to 600/1200
You have the button and 16,500 chips and a calling station image but you've been lucky hitting cards
Two middle position players limp
You limp along with 
SB shoves for 7,100, SB has shoved each of the 2 times you have limped when in sb against him and you have folded. SB also shoved the last time there was a limped pot on his SB again picking up the pot.

All fold round to you, 6300 to call.

Do you call?

[matt674]

One of the reasons i hate limping at this stage of the tournament - your calling for between 5-10% of your stack with a hand where you wont know where you stand faced with a raise. Even if you see a flop with 5 players unless you flop an absolute monster you still wont know where you stand, all you have going for you is position.

For me in this instance i believe you have only two options, raise or fold and here given that you have position i'd probably go for the raise option and make it 4200 or 4400 to play. (this dependant on the stack sizes of the middle position limpers).

In answer to your question - i probably pass

[boldie]

One of the reasons i hate limping at this stage of the tournament - your calling for between 5-10% of your stack with a hand where you wont know where you stand faced with a raise. Even if you see a flop with 5 players unless you flop an absolute monster you still wont know where you stand, all you have going for you is position.

For me in this instance i believe you have only two options, raise or fold and here given that you have position i'd probably go for the raise option and make it 4200 or 4400 to play. (this dependant on the stack sizes of the middle position limpers).

In answer to your question - i probably pass

I'm with you on this. The point of playing hands like these on the button (fairly marginal) is to raise with them and pick up the blinds..you can't limp call with them I think.

[ACE2M]

One of the reasons i hate limping at this stage of the tournament - your calling for between 5-10% of your stack with a hand where you wont know where you stand faced with a raise. Even if you see a flop with 5 players unless you flop an absolute monster you still wont know where you stand, all you have going for you is position.

For me in this instance i believe you have only two options, raise or fold and here given that you have position i'd probably go for the raise option and make it 4200 or 4400 to play. (this dependant on the stack sizes of the middle position limpers).

In answer to your question - i probably pass

I'm with you on this. The point of playing hands like these on the button (fairly marginal) is to raise with them and pick up the blinds..you can't limp call with them I think.

Yes, a raise would have been the better play but do you now call given the action?

[boldie]

One of the reasons i hate limping at this stage of the tournament - your calling for between 5-10% of your stack with a hand where you wont know where you stand faced with a raise. Even if you see a flop with 5 players unless you flop an absolute monster you still wont know where you stand, all you have going for you is position.

For me in this instance i believe you have only two options, raise or fold and here given that you have position i'd probably go for the raise option and make it 4200 or 4400 to play. (this dependant on the stack sizes of the middle position limpers).

In answer to your question - i probably pass

I'm with you on this. The point of playing hands like these on the button (fairly marginal) is to raise with them and pick up the blinds..you can't limp call with them I think.

Yes, a raise would have been the better play but do you now call given the action?

probably not, there were other limpers on the pot and he should have some sort of hand to want to take all of them on.
If it was just me and him in there and he'd done that twice already to me then yes I would simply to show him he can't mess me about.

[ACE2M]

But it is now heads up and proving he can't mess with you has almost no value given if you call he now has you out chipped. Any thought to pot odds, his range?

[MANTIS01]

Limping with this sort of hand after two other early limpers is fine if the table is passive and we are seeing a lot of flops. It is a reasonable hand that could hit the flop big. After the flop you will then have the benefit of position in a big multi-way pot and can control the hand from there. In the absence of any other information limping here is fine.

However, actually you do have additional information to consider. From reading the game you are seeing a pattern develop. When you limp the SB pushes. This is a big factor to consider before you decide how to play this hand.

Before you make your play here you must decide what are you going to do if he pushes again. You are wasting your chips if you call hoping to see a cheap flop but will fold if he pushes again. If you are picking up on patterns in a game but proceed to call anyway hoping that the pattern doesn't continue there seems little point in reading patterns in the first place. You have taken the trouble to get this information so use it.

If you intend to fold the J-Q if he pushes then it is far better to fold rather than simply passing him 800 chips. If you intend to call if he pushes then limping with the J-Q is fine. Calling with this marginal hand for that quantity of chips is not a play that I would make however. If I looked down here and saw AA I would limp all day long. Now I am using this pattern information to my advantage.

If you do want to play this hand though I would definitely raise. Put in a standard 2,400. The raise doesn't have to be a big one. You have a hand that you wouldn't mind seeing the flop with and you still have position. If you take the pot down here then fine, but seeing a flop is ok as well. How does the SB re-act when you raise? Is he more passive? If you don't know then you are about to get that information for your 2,400 at the very least. If he pushes now you still have the option to fold if you want, but making the call is more justifiable.

The important thing is that you are playing the hand on your terms not his. To keep limping and folding as he pulls the strings at the table is not good poker. Use the information you have to start pulling the strings and asking the questions yourself.

So I agree with matt. Raise or fold here, don't limp fold or limp call.

[boldie]

But it is now heads up and proving he can't mess with you has almost know value given if you call he now has you out chipped. Any thought to pot odds, his range?

ok say there's only the two of you in the hand. there have been no pre-flop limpers other than yourself.
This situation has happened a couple of times before and both times you have folded your hand. He therefore thinks you are weak. At some stage you have to make a stand against players like that. JQ suited will do.

If it's just the two of you in the situation described above he doesn't need to have a range as he has you down as weak and cash push and get you to fold with any two.

[ACE2M]

ok, i'm the small blind in the hand.

I would raise all day long on the button with those cards, i am really interested in the call or not part.

[Tragic]

One additional piece of information is needed I think. The last two times he shoved when you completed, were there other limpers in the pot? If it was just you then it points to this time him having a slightly stronger hand so on this I would probably pass, if the last times there had been no other limpers then I don't think the call is too bad, he must be aware of the extra players and less likely to shove. Though apart from the first limper you two are kind of advertising your hands are pretty weak. Pass, and generally avoid limping in this spot, if the blinds had been 600/1200 though, I think the pot odds are making it pretty close to a call.

[ACE2M]

there are 2 middle position limpers who have folded to the shove.

1 a shortstack and 1 an average stack

[MANTIS01]

Whether you call the SB's all-in here and whether you go on to win or loose the hand is not altogether important. I would imagine that you are going to be behind and possibly dominated. Whether you choose to call here is entirely down to whether you want to gamble or not. There isn't a specifically correct answer.

What's far more important is that in situations like this your opponent has 2 chances to win the pot. You folding and him winning at showdown. You only have 1 chance to win. If you keep facing these decisions you should be looking more at how you are approaching the game rather than whether this particular call is correct or not.

Don't think that calling here is a good way of standing up to this aggressive opponent. Raising first is a much better way of getting the same message across.

Again, it is important to have a clear idea of how you are going to approach the hand and the decisions you are likely to face before you commit any chips to the pot at all. Hoping that he doesn't raise even though you know he probably will and then not knowing what to do is not using much foresight. Better to raise and get some quality information about the hands that are out there or fold and move on to the next hand.