Distasteful?

[Tragic]

1) Yes, very.

2) The MOD, who have apparently encouraged this move, are to blame, not the individuals.
One assumes the MOD need to try & placate, via PR means, those who say that it's a sad day when a Royal Navy vessel is captured without a shot being fired.

Surely giving the individuals choice in the matter they are being as fair as possible? Freedom of speech and all that, i'm sure everyone would like to hear some unbiased stories, though this being the case is pretty unlikely, and i'm sure they have a fair idea whether the individuals conscience will stop them selling or not .

"unbiased".....? Hardly!

[Ironside]

the british armed forces are amongst the lowest paid employees in britain they constant have had the lives threatened since the year dot all in aid of letting rich city folk get the best medical care when they sufer stress after pressing a button on a typewriter

its about time they got to earn some decent money and if being allowed to sell there story or write a book as long as they dont give away any secrets or put lives at risk i say fair play to them

though i think most of them will give any money they do earn to chairties that will help those families that have lost loved ones in conflicts

[Geo the Sarge]

a) When the Iraq war started there was a 2-page story in the paper just about everyday about a soldier having been killed in the line of duty and his family giving their perspective and comments, etc. This was by the families who were not governed by the MOD rules on talking to the press
b)They were captured by the Iranians on a matter of territorial intrusion and therefore cannot really be considered to be part of the Iraqi conflict. This "intrusion" was during their duties within the Iraq conflict.

c)Not a shot was fired and the general public do want to know what occurred in those 2 weeks and if they can get monetary reward for telling their story then why not.

With regards to the media, they wouldn't want the story so bad if people in the general public didn't want to know what happened. They only offer high prices to get more people buying their papers. Surely comes down to the simple concept of supply and demand.

The main debate here is whether the MOD are right in allowing these individuals to give their stories via the media and collect payment for this, something that no serviceman/woman has been entitled to do before. Anyone wishing to gain from stories from their experiences whilst in service has had to leave the service to do this.

I have a couple of points on this.

1. My brother and I were both serving when he was murdered by the IRA in 1993. At the time there were various media stories regarding this (who was responsible, the method etc. You will all no doubt remember the spate of 1 shot "super sniper" stories at that time.) Worst of all was the anonymous stories of so-called friends and comrades of my brother who went to the press with tales of last meals, talks and one even suggesting that he had actually stood in for someone else and should not have been on that patrol. A couple of them even went to the press after being AWOL for a few weeks saying their reason for being absent was the effect that my brothers death had on them as they were mates - he hardly even knew them as they were from a different company!!

My family never responded in respect for my brother and also to myself as I was still serving. Our thoughts on it were, we new the dangers involved when we joined up and that it could have happened at any point. Indeed we had both served in the 1st Gulf war and it was reasonably expected that one or either of us could indeed have not returned.

2. I think it was Red dog who mentioned in Tikay's thread regarding where were you when?

The incident with the 2 Royal Signals guys who inadvertently got caught up in an IRA funeral and were subsequently slaughtered. My unit was on duty in the area that day and shortly after one of our commanders had given a statement to some press guy regarding the fact that we were in close proximity and could see what was happening and had asked his superiors whether we were to intervene. We were told not to and at that time admittedly, no-one realised that it was 2 soldiers that were involved. This commander was subsequently disciplined for this interview and was reduced in rank and fined.

Just a couple of personal reasons why I find this kind of thing distasteful.

My third, and to me, the most disappointing point is that I fear that the Government (I know we all say it's an MOD decision but lets not kid ourselves.) is allowing this as part of a larger campaign to smear the Iranian government. The more harrowing the stories can be made to look the more support the government will get when/if looking to act against Iran.

For me it all started when all 15 got on a plane in Iran wearing suits supplied by the Iranians (albeit ill-fitting) to emerge at the other end wearing full military gear and paraded immediately in front of the cameras.

In the end, we will probably never get the full true story of what happened during these last couple of weeks but i feel that if it were left to "outsiders" to do the commenting it would have less impact on Joe public's thoughts as he would be unsure of the validity of the reports.

By allowing the individuals to give their (or the government's) story is much more likely to get a response from Joe public.

After all, individuals like McNab, Ryan and the airman John Nicolls had to leave the service before they could give the true stories of their heroic deeds.

Geo

[tikay]

a) When the Iraq war started there was a 2-page story in the paper just about everyday about a soldier having been killed in the line of duty and his family giving their perspective and comments, etc. This was by the families who were not governed by the MOD rules on talking to the press
b)They were captured by the Iranians on a matter of territorial intrusion and therefore cannot really be considered to be part of the Iraqi conflict. This "intrusion" was during their duties within the Iraq conflict.

c)Not a shot was fired and the general public do want to know what occurred in those 2 weeks and if they can get monetary reward for telling their story then why not.

With regards to the media, they wouldn't want the story so bad if people in the general public didn't want to know what happened. They only offer high prices to get more people buying their papers. Surely comes down to the simple concept of supply and demand.

The main debate here is whether the MOD are right in allowing these individuals to give their stories via the media and collect payment for this, something that no serviceman/woman has been entitled to do before. Anyone wishing to gain from stories from their experiences whilst in service has had to leave the service to do this.

I have a couple of points on this.

1. My brother and I were both serving when he was murdered by the IRA in 1993. At the time there were various media stories regarding this (who was responsible, the method etc. You will all no doubt remember the spate of 1 shot "super sniper" stories at that time.) Worst of all was the anonymous stories of so-called friends and comrades of my brother who went to the press with tales of last meals, talks and one even suggesting that he had actually stood in for someone else and should not have been on that patrol. A couple of them even went to the press after being AWOL for a few weeks saying their reason for being absent was the effect that my brothers death had on them as they were mates - he hardly even knew them as they were from a different company!!

My family never responded in respect for my brother and also to myself as I was still serving. Our thoughts on it were, we new the dangers involved when we joined up and that it could have happened at any point. Indeed we had both served in the 1st Gulf war and it was reasonably expected that one or either of us could indeed have not returned.

2. I think it was Red dog who mentioned in Tikay's thread regarding where were you when?

The incident with the 2 Royal Signals guys who inadvertently got caught up in an IRA funeral and were subsequently slaughtered. My unit was on duty in the area that day and shortly after one of our commanders had given a statement to some press guy regarding the fact that we were in close proximity and could see what was happening and had asked his superiors whether we were to intervene. We were told not to and at that time admittedly, no-one realised that it was 2 soldiers that were involved. This commander was subsequently disciplined for this interview and was reduced in rank and fined.

Just a couple of personal reasons why I find this kind of thing distasteful.

My third, and to me, the most disappointing point is that I fear that the Government (I know we all say it's an MOD decision but lets not kid ourselves.) is allowing this as part of a larger campaign to smear the Iranian government. The more harrowing the stories can be made to look the more support the government will get when/if looking to act against Iran.

For me it all started when all 15 got on a plane in Iran wearing suits supplied by the Iranians (albeit ill-fitting) to emerge at the other end wearing full military gear and paraded immediately in front of the cameras.

In the end, we will probably never get the full true story of what happened during these last couple of weeks but i feel that if it were left to "outsiders" to do the commenting it would have less impact on Joe public's thoughts as he would be unsure of the validity of the reports.

By allowing the individuals to give their (or the government's) story is much more likely to get a response from Joe public.

After all, individuals like McNab, Ryan and the airman John Nicolls had to leave the service before they could give the true stories of their heroic deeds.

Geo

A stunningly good Post Sir, which answers every question asked.

I would go on to say that my belief that these Service poeple should not sell their stories to the Media does not imply anything other than the huge respect I have for all our Armed Forces.

[RED-DOG]

Thank you. A breathtakingly direct and well reasoned post.

For the record, it was tikay who brought the Funeral incident up.

[Geo the Sarge]

Thank you. A breathtakingly direct and well reasoned post.

For the record, it was tikay who brought the Funeral incident up.

Thanks Red & Tikay,

Got a wee bit mixed up on thread creator and poster.

I was actually contemplating placing a thread regards this, however thought that due to my service background it may not have been taken as seriously. Thanks to tighty for starting this.

as a post note,

My eldest son now serves and has served twice in Iraq, my family and I would never dream of getting involved with the media, god forbid, if he was ever involved in anything like this.

Tikay,

Look forward to getting a chance to meet in Edinburgh next weekend.

Geo

[tikay]

Thank you. A breathtakingly direct and well reasoned post.

For the record, it was tikay who brought the Funeral incident up.

Thanks Red & Tikay,

Got a wee bit mixed up on thread creator and poster.

I was actually contemplating placing a thread regards this, however thought that due to my service background it may not have been taken as seriously. Thanks to tighty for starting this.

as a post note,

My eldest son now serves and has served twice in Iraq, my family and I would never dream of getting involved with the media, god forbid, if he was ever involved in anything like this.

Tikay,

Look forward to getting a chance to meet in Edinburgh next weekend.

Geo

Yes, that would be good, let's chat next week.

And thanks to Tighty for starting  this excellent thread, it's a subject I've been mulling over, & one which troubles me greatly.

[Ironside]

geo do you really thing that any serviceman/woman would make false statements in the press to "help" the government

none of the men i served with would of none of the ones i knew from when my dad servedwould have

servicemen are like the rest of the population and see the government as a nessesary evil giving us chit pay and

accomidation that is falling apart while ecpecting us to bail them out when ever there policy piss the public off enough to strike

i dont know any junior rank that would lie for a government of either of the parties

also no serving solider wants a war espically when there are already over stretch so i doubt they would emblish storys to try and stir

up hatered of another nation for politcal purposes which could lead to war

i cant speak for the officers as they might have alteria motibes like slippery poles and future careers nut that doesnt really apply

to junior ranks ans SNCOs

[yellowmagic]

I am not sure if it breaches the bounds of good taste, but to me it's just plain wrong. A few thoughts:

- I suspect this was sanctioned by the upper echelons of the Royal Navy, who have had the shortcomings of their rules of engagement, stretched resources for the patrolling task, and lack of training for service personnel in response to capture, exposed in world view for a fortnight. They are laying a smokescreen. Out of it, we may find what compelled the personnel involved to give more than "name, rank, and serial number". Also, we may find out to what extent Iran breached the Geneva convention, although after Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib the world is inured to it. The performances on Iranian TV would have made Lord Haw Haw proud.

- We should not forget that these personnel were doing a dangerous and vital job, patrolling to intercept arms smuggled to Iraq to support insurgents, probably Republican Guard funded. I would like to see President Ahmedinejad supporting their efforts to prevent smuggling across his border, but I am not holding my breath.

- I doubt that the MoD is sufficiently PR savvy to manage this news leak, let alone deal with the further consequences of it in the years to come. I am mindful of this 25 years after John Nott's performance.

- I believe the FCO probably had to pull a lot of diplomatic levers to help bring about the outcome: I wonder what a US response might have been.

- I assume that after Peter Wright et al, the Official Secrets Act has had its teeth pulled, and in this age the storytelling is inevitable.

- My thoughts are with the personnel and their families, and those of all the people still held hostage in Gaza, Afghanistan, Iraq, and other places tonight. I hope we never lose sight of who the real bad guys are, and laze into moral equivalence.

 

[Geo the Sarge]

geo do you really thing that any serviceman/woman would make false statements in the press to "help" the government

none of the men i served with would of none of the ones i knew from when my dad servedwould have

servicemen are like the rest of the population and see the government as a nessesary evil giving us chit pay and

accomidation that is falling apart while ecpecting us to bail them out when ever there policy piss the public off enough to strike

i dont know any junior rank that would lie for a government of either of the parties

also no serving solider wants a war espically when there are already over stretch so i doubt they would emblish storys to try and stir

up hatered of another nation for politcal purposes which could lead to war

i cant speak for the officers as they might have alteria motibes like slippery poles and future careers nut that doesnt really apply

to junior ranks ans SNCOs

Alistair,

I have never at any time stated that they would make up false statements, merely that the government would prefer the more harrowing side of the tale to be told to gain support for their campaign against Iran whether we deem it correct or not.

Having recently finished my time (and remain an honorary member of my units Sgt's Mess) and with a son currently serving, I am more than aware of the thoughts of the front line soldiers towards over commitment and particularly our participation in this Iraq war. the 1st war we can justify as They had invaded Kuwait and the Kuwaiti's requested assistance. This war is about supporting Bush and I, like many serving and ex servicemen have my doubts as to whether we should be there.

Whilst i can agree regards the standard of accommodation, I cannot agree that servicemen/women are amongst the poorest paid in the country, whether the pay they receive is worthy of what we ask of them is a different matter.

I will always support our troops in whatever our government asks them to do, not neccessariy agreeing with the government.

I take great solace from various debates I have seen over the last few years that the public realises that our forces do as they are told and that the forces are still supported by the majority of the public whatever situation they are placed in.

Geo

[Geo the Sarge]

I am not sure if it breaches the bounds of good taste, but to me it's just plain wrong. A few thoughts:

- I suspect this was sanctioned by the upper echelons of the Royal Navy, who have had the shortcomings of their rules of engagement, stretched resources for the patrolling task, and lack of training for service personnel in response to capture, exposed in world view for a fortnight. They are laying a smokescreen. Out of it, we may find what compelled the personnel involved to give more than "name, rank, and serial number". Also, we may find out to what extent Iran breached the Geneva convention, although after Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib the world is inured to it. The performances on Iranian TV would have made Lord Haw Haw proud.

- We should not forget that these personnel were doing a dangerous and vital job, patrolling to intercept arms smuggled to Iraq to support insurgents, probably Republican Guard funded. I would like to see President Ahmedinejad supporting their efforts to prevent smuggling across his border, but I am not holding my breath.

- I doubt that the MoD is sufficiently PR savvy to manage this news leak, let alone deal with the further consequences of it in the years to come. I am mindful of this 25 years after John Nott's performance.

- I believe the FCO probably had to pull a lot of diplomatic levers to help bring about the outcome: I wonder what a US response might have been.

- I assume that after Peter Wright et al, the Official Secrets Act has had its teeth pulled, and in this age the storytelling is inevitable.

- My thoughts are with the personnel and their families, and those of all the people still held hostage in Gaza, Afghanistan, Iraq, and other places tonight. I hope we never lose sight of who the real bad guys are, and laze into moral equivalence.

 

Good post and very well put.

geo

[Ironside]

the public have little or no respect for the forces IMHO
i still remember getting turned away from pubs and clubs of england because i was forces
even though i was out with my sister and her friends who were all locals

the pay in the forces when i was in was pitance and basically slave labour
there is no other job in the world i would have done for that money
i think its an insult

although i never made the first gulf war due to nreaking my back my unit went
and i agree it was fough for the right reason

wether this recent conflict is justified is nothing to do with the soldiers they are there as they are told to be there and they have no say in the matter they cant just down tools because they dont like the orders, the public dont seem to understand that and recently an ex collegue of mine was spat at in a london airport because he was carrying his kitbag

i am all for the boy/girls making a little bit of extra money if murdoch and his cronies are willing to pay for there stories as i said earl;ier most of the money will proberly end up in the coffers of unit charities and i dont think anything they will say will make the public on the side of anymore government esacpades without conctrete evidance of aggression

[tikay]

Great Post by yellowmagic.

[Geo the Sarge]

the public have little or no respect for the forces IMHO cannot agree with this at all, I have seen so much evidence of support to our service people during these torrid few years.

i still remember getting turned away from pubs and clubs of england because i was forces
even though i was out with my sister and her friends who were all locals This is very common, especially in garrison towns and is more to do with the troule that occurs when you have young soldiers (with cash in their pockets) pinching the gals from the locals


the pay in the forces when i was in was pitance and basically slave labour
there is no other job in the world i would have done for that money
i think its an insult Don't know when you joined or how long you were in, I joined in 1978 and left 2001. Agree that initially pay was poor but advancements have been made and soldiers pay is above average nowadays, as I said not neccasserily in keeping with what they are asked to do.

although i never made the first gulf war due to nreaking my back my unit went
and i agree it was fough for the right reason At least we have made agreement on something.

wether this recent conflict is justified is nothing to do with the soldiers they are there as they are told to be there and they have no say in the matter they cant just down tools because they dont like the orders, the public dont seem to understand that and recently an ex collegue of mine was spat at in a london airport because he was carrying his kitbag I believe the majority of the public do understand and we will always have the odd idiot who will do this sort of thing.

i am all for the boy/girls making a little bit of extra money if murdoch and his cronies are willing to pay for there stories as i said earl;ier most of the money will proberly end up in the coffers of unit charities and i dont think anything they will say will make the public on the side of anymore government esacpades without conctrete evidance of aggression

but why should the rules be changed in this instance? if they feel they need to make money from their story, left them leave the service as others have had to do. This is the main reason for this thread, the fact that in this case, they have changed the rules. i for one believe it is not for the fact that these people can make a few bob but merely a propoganda exercise.

Are you making it to Edinburgh next weekend? would be good to get a chin wag and talk Army.

Geo

[tikay]

the public have little or no respect for the forces IMHO cannot agree with this at all, I have seen so much evidence of support to our service people during these torrid few years.

i still remember getting turned away from pubs and clubs of england because i was forces
even though i was out with my sister and her friends who were all locals This is very common, especially in garrison towns and is more to do with the troule that occurs when you have young soldiers (with cash in their pockets) pinching the gals from the locals


the pay in the forces when i was in was pitance and basically slave labour
there is no other job in the world i would have done for that money
i think its an insult Don't know when you joined or how long you were in, I joined in 1978 and left 2001. Agree that initially pay was poor but advancements have been made and soldiers pay is above average nowadays, as I said not neccasserily in keeping with what they are asked to do.

although i never made the first gulf war due to nreaking my back my unit went
and i agree it was fough for the right reason At least we have made agreement on something.

wether this recent conflict is justified is nothing to do with the soldiers they are there as they are told to be there and they have no say in the matter they cant just down tools because they dont like the orders, the public dont seem to understand that and recently an ex collegue of mine was spat at in a london airport because he was carrying his kitbag I believe the majoruty of the public do understand and we will always have the odd idiot how will do this sort of thing.

i am all for the boy/girls making a little bit of extra money if murdoch and his cronies are willing to pay for there stories as i said earl;ier most of the money will proberly end up in the coffers of unit charities and i dont think anything they will say will make the public on the side of anymore government esacpades without conctrete evidance of aggression

but why should the rules be changed in this instance? if they feel they need to make money from their story, left them leave the service as others have had to do. This is the main reason for this thread, the fact that in this case, they have changed the rules. i for one believe it is not for the fact that these people can make a few bob but merely a propoganda exercise.

Are you making it to Edinburgh next weekend? would be good to get a chin wag and talk Army.

Geo

...yes,. & they have changed the rules - on this occasion - for a reason. It's not hard to work out what is going on here, & all this other justification is merely a smokescreen. The Government Spin Machine is an utterly loathesome thing, content to "use" anyone they can.