Is this sports generation blessed?

[TightEnd]

with the presence of all time greats, more so than other eras? (comparisons in brackets)


Michael Schumacher it could be argued is the best ever (Fangio, Senna)

Tiger Woods, the same..... (Nicklaus, Hogan)

Roger Federer....the same (Laver, Borg etc)

Zidane, Ronaldinho........(Puskas, Moore, Di Stefano.......)

Tendulkar, Lara.......? (Bradman, Sobers.......)

Lance Armstrong? (Merckx)



but we have all these in one era/decade.........



or do we over-react to perceived greatness due to blanket media coverage?


is it down to improvements in technology/training techniques?

[matt674]

evolution and technology improvements.

[kinboshi]

Probably due to science, money (attracting more players and enabling people to focus 100% on their sport), and media exposure.

Also there are some sports where it could be argued that we're missing the stars of yesteryear - e.g. boxing.

[CrestOfaWave]

all of these people are immensely talented and I would agree that this generation has seen some superb atheletes.
I would add Martina Navritolva to the list, probably Maradona to.

Indeed some brilliant sportspeople.

The power of determination and mindpower being a critical part of their success.Particularly in the case of Lance Armstrong and Tiger Woods.

Federer just proved his mental toughness by finally beating Nadal on clay - getting over his fear of the surface against the best exponent on that surface. Now he has that monkey off his back - he will have to target another goal - it must be immensely boring winning all the time.

[The Baron]

Good question.

I think it depends on the sport. In cricket not much has changed. Averages and scores from 40 years ago are still relevant and comparable. Golf is another sport where this is probably quite true. Arguably snooker too. In motor racing however the cars are ever improving and real comparisons are hard to make. Football comparisons are very difficult to make. As are comparisons in Tennis.

For me a sport's golden eras are times with a good competitive balance and uncertainty of outcome. An example is boxing. Real greats in the sport are usually from a time where many other greats were about. ie Ali/Frazier/Foreman or Heans/Hagler/Duran/Leonard. Similarly in athletics with Lewis/Burrell. Johnson/Fredericks. Lewis/Powell. Coe/Ovett.

I do think the media are guilty of over hyping at times but I think it's also a real possibility that all time greats will always be surpassed as we strive to improve, get better, go faster and win more.

The best sports for comparisons to the past are all US sports. Statistics are everything over there. Players wages and contracts are dependant on their points scored/yards made etc etc. In a lot of European sports that is very hard to do.

For the most part though I do just think sportspersons get better as we evolve and our training techniques and technologies improve. (And people can play their desired sport full time and be supported by their government etc)

There are of course exceptions (If Michael Johnson's 200m world record goes in the next 10 years I'll be surprised!) but these are just one offs I guess. Events that simply cannot be accounted for by reasoning and are literally history making. But on the whole I think we're just going to improve year after year.

[kinboshi]

There are of course exceptions (If Michael Johnson's 200m world record goes in the next 10 years I'll be surprised!) but these are just one offs I guess. Events that simply cannot be accounted for by reasoning and are literally history making. But on the whole I think we're just going to improve year after year.

Absolutely.  The fella is/was a freak.  It'll need another freak (with the training, opportunity, etc.) to come close.

Athletics is interesting, as although there are medals to win in the big events, there are 'absolutes' in place to compare athletes - world records.  For example, there are many who don't recognise Paula Radcliffe's achievements (focusing instead on her track disappointments and that race in Greece), but she's almost certainly Britain's finest ever athlete.  In her discipline (road running) have a look at her personal bests from the 8K distance and above and note how many are world records or world bests:

• 8 km road - 24:05 (World Best)
• 10 km road - 30:21 (WR)
• 15 km road - 46:41 (World Best)
• 10 mi road - 50:01 (World Best)
• 20 km road - 1:02.21
• Half Marathon - 1:05:40 (World Best)
• 25 km road - 1:20:36 (World Best)
• 30 km road - 1:36:36 (World Best)
• 20 mi road - 1:43:33 (World Best)
• Marathon - 2:15:25 (WR)

Other athletics 'legends' from present or recent times include:  Sergey Bubka (Pole Vault), Jan Zelezný (Javelin), Jonathan Edwards (Triple Jump), Michael Johnson (as mentioned) 200m & 400m, Kenenisa Bekele 5Km & 10Km, and lots of others I can't think of at the moment.

To break these athlete's records isn't just a case of modern technology improving training techniques, etc., it also needs a brilliantly talented and gifted individual to start with.

It's far, far harder (impossible?) to compare sportsmen in many sports.  Is Federer the best male tennis player of all time?  Was Ali the greatest?  Maradona or Pele (or Zidane, etc.)?  Liverpool of the late 70s early 80s, Man U of the 90s?  They make some interesting debates though!

[The Baron]

But can you say Asafa Powell is better than Greene or Lewis just becuase he ran faster once?

Even with absolute times, the ability to train with more precision in some areas that athletes couldn't fine tune as much (ie diet) surely makes today's crop have an advantage?

Perhaps the real trick in athletics is having a world record that is not broken for many years. ie Bubka, Coe, Johnson, Edwards, Jackson, Moses etc. This at least proves they were way ahead of not only their generation but ones that followed.

[Geo the Sarge]

with the presence of all time greats, more so than other eras? (comparisons in brackets)


Michael Schumacher it could be argued is the best ever (Fangio,Surtees,Moss,Hill, Senna)

Tiger Woods, the same..... (Nicklaus, Palmer, Player,Jacklin Hogan)

Roger Federer....the same (Laver,Nastase,McEnroe, Connors, Borg etc)

Zidane, Ronaldinho........(Puskas, Moore,Beckenbauer,Pele,Eusebio Di Stefano.......)

Tendulkar, Lara.......? (Bradman, Sobers.......)

Lance Armstrong? (Merckx)



but we have all these in one era/decade.........



or do we over-react to perceived greatness due to blanket media coverage?


is it down to improvements in technology/training techniques?

Not very clued up on cricket and cycling. Interesting to note that in days gone by there were always 2/3 or 4 top men in most sports competing against each other.

Nowadays there constantly seems to be 1 superstar who emerges ala, Woods, Federer, Armstrong, Michael Johnson, Michael Jordan.

I have a theory that nowadays the rewards are so high for being 2nd/3rd etc that a lot of sportsman are happy to accept second place.

Geo

[The Baron]

Intruiging post Geo. Are there any rivalries at the very top of sports these days?

Federer/Nadal. I'm struggling here.

[Geo the Sarge]

Intruiging post Geo. Are there any rivalries at the very top of sports these days?

Federer/Nadal. I'm struggling here.

This was partly the reason for my post, I struggled too.

In snooker for example, Steve Davis then Stephen Hendry dominated different decades and all the time Jimmy White was there or thereabouts, gaining the reputation of the nearly man. Ronnie O'Sullivan currently is without doubt the greatest cueman ever but lacks the motivation of the likes of Davis/Hendry to dominate. Accept he may well have other psychological problems.

Geo.

[Geo the Sarge]

There are of course exceptions (If Michael Johnson's 200m world record goes in the next 10 years I'll be surprised!) but these are just one offs I guess. Events that simply cannot be accounted for by reasoning and are literally history making. But on the whole I think we're just going to improve year after year.

Absolutely.  The fella is/was a freak.  It'll need another freak (with the training, opportunity, etc.) to come close.

Athletics is interesting, as although there are medals to win in the big events, there are 'absolutes' in place to compare athletes - world records.  For example, there are many who don't recognise Paula Radcliffe's achievements (focusing instead on her track disappointments and that race in Greece), but she's almost certainly Britain's finest ever athlete.  In her discipline (road running) have a look at her personal bests from the 8K distance and above and note how many are world records or world bests:

• 8 km road - 24:05 (World Best)
• 10 km road - 30:21 (WR)
• 15 km road - 46:41 (World Best)
• 10 mi road - 50:01 (World Best)
• 20 km road - 1:02.21
• Half Marathon - 1:05:40 (World Best)
• 25 km road - 1:20:36 (World Best)
• 30 km road - 1:36:36 (World Best)
• 20 mi road - 1:43:33 (World Best)
• Marathon - 2:15:25 (WR)

Other athletics 'legends' from present or recent times include:  Sergey Bubka (Pole Vault), Jan Zelezný (Javelin), Jonathan Edwards (Triple Jump), Michael Johnson (as mentioned) 200m & 400m, Kenenisa Bekele 5Km & 10Km, and lots of others I can't think of at the moment.

To break these athlete's records isn't just a case of modern technology improving training techniques, etc., it also needs a brilliantly talented and gifted individual to start with.

It's far, far harder (impossible?) to compare sportsmen in many sports.  Is Federer the best male tennis player of all time?  Was Ali the greatest?  Maradona or Pele (or Zidane, etc.)?  Liverpool of the late 70s early 80s, Man U of the 90s?  They make some interesting debates though!

But can you say Asafa Powell is better than Greene or Lewis just becuase he ran faster once?

Even with absolute times, the ability to train with more precision in some areas that athletes couldn't fine tune as much (ie diet) surely makes today's crop have an advantage?

Perhaps the real trick in athletics is having a world record that is not broken for many years. ie Bubka, Coe, Johnson, Edwards, Jackson, Moses etc. This at least proves they were way ahead of not only their generation but ones that followed.

2 very good posts.

I also prefer to measure greatness on longevity at the top and how far beyond the boundaries a sportsman/woman has taken their sport.

In motor racing for example, we got excited by Damon Hill/David Coulthard/Eddie Irvine and Jensen Button (possibly Brit media led) but they never really matured into the greats we had hoped.

Lewis Hamilton is the next up and I feel however that this lad may well be different and will become a great. I just feel that having listened to some of his interviews he is more well balanced and focussed on the job in hand than the benefits to be gained.

Geo

[kinboshi]

But can you say Asafa Powell is better than Greene or Lewis just becuase he ran faster once?

Not necessarily better - just faster.  Bannister's 4-minute mile is a good case in point.  All top middle-distance runners can beat his time now - but his achievement in his day is far greater in comparative terms to those who run 3m50s miles today.  El Guerrouj was a class apart in that distance in recent times though, and yes you could have the debate as to who history will look on as 'greater' based on their achievements in their own era. 

Even with absolute times, the ability to train with more precision in some areas that athletes couldn't fine tune as much (ie diet) surely makes today's crop have an advantage?

Yes, I agree.  Compare Zátopek and Bekele.  Bekele's times are obviously better - but what Zátopek achieved was incredible. 

Perhaps the real trick in athletics is having a world record that is not broken for many years. ie Bubka, Coe, Johnson, Edwards, Jackson, Moses etc. This at least proves they were way ahead of not only their generation but ones that followed.

I agree, but the problem with this is when two 'legends' come onto the scene in close proximity. Haile Gebrselassie was (and still is a legend - and he always has that smile on his face ;d), and many thought his records would last a good few years.  Then Bekele came along, his protégé, and wiped out many of Gebrselassie's records before he'd even retired from track racing.  No one would argue that Gebrselassie isn't a great, and it would have been brilliant to see a young Gebrselassie in his prime up against Bekele. 

Ed Moses - he went for years without losing.  I've just done a search and he was undefeated for nine years, nine months and nine days, for 122 consecutive races!  Kevin Young broke his 16-year old record and it still stands 15 years later.  Most people would say that Moses was the 'greater' of the two, but obviously Young ran the quickest time.  Again - if only these two could have been around at the same time!

[The Baron]

No disrespect to Kevin young but from memory, he came out of nowhere and didn't do a hell of a lot after his WR time. Ed Moses as you rightly say was an absolute legend.

[kinboshi]

I hold Moses in higher esteem - no doubt about it.  But Young was also an all-time great.  The fact his record still stands (and he could have shaved a few tenths off that time if he hadn't slowed before the line), is testament to that.

[boldie]

But can you say Asafa Powell is better than Greene or Lewis just becuase he ran faster once?

Even with absolute times, the ability to train with more precision in some areas that athletes couldn't fine tune as much (ie diet) surely makes today's crop have an advantage?

Perhaps the real trick in athletics is having a world record that is not broken for many years. ie Bubka, Coe, Johnson, Edwards, Jackson, Moses etc. This at least proves they were way ahead of not only their generation but ones that followed.

Moses is an all time great in my book and one of the reasons I don't hate Althetics as much as I should. Same goes for Ottey.