Who misplayed this hand the most?

[dino1980]

Stars Round Two satellite $50+$5 f/o one ticket for every $225, 30 tickets in this particular satellite. Avg will be 6k with 30 left. Currently c.36 left (definitely not more, but could've been 34 left). So yeah who messed up the most (i think i know and why) but opinions welcome.

a) Me
b) maximum8282
c) both of us
d) the button - he should shove ATC
e) the cut-off - it's the new button he should shove ATC
f) UTG - it's the newest button he's BB next he should shove ATC

PokerStars Game #10537594839: Tournament #53333512, $50+$5 Hold'em No Limit - Level XI (600/1200) - 2007/06/20 - 21:20:38 (ET) Table '53333512 10' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: dino1980 (9010 in chips)
Seat 2: maximum8282 (5005 in chips)
Seat 3: itsyourlife (3140 in chips)
Seat 4: detballer11 (2320 in chips)
Seat 5: kwabs (770 in chips)
Seat 6: pokrjokr666 (2455 in chips)
Seat 7: glovehigh27 (8300 in chips)
Seat 8: RINationals (4225 in chips)
Seat 9: f-factor06 (3240 in chips)
dino1980: posts the ante 120
maximum8282: posts the ante 120
itsyourlife: posts the ante 120
detballer11: posts the ante 120
kwabs: posts the ante 120
pokrjokr666: posts the ante 120
glovehigh27: posts the ante 120
RINationals: posts the ante 120
f-factor06: posts the ante 120
dino1980: posts small blind 600
maximum8282: posts big blind 1200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dino1980 [ ]
itsyourlife: folds
detballer11: folds
kwabs: folds
pokrjokr666: folds
glovehigh27: folds
RINationals: folds
f-factor06: folds
dino1980: raises 1200 to 2400
maximum8282: raises 2400 to 4800
dino1980: raises 2400 to 7200
maximum8282: calls 85 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [ ]
*** TURN *** [ ] []
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
*** SHOW DOWN ***
dino1980: shows [ ] (two pair, Tens and Sixes)
maximum8282: shows [ ] (two pair, Tens and Eights) maximum8282 collected 10850 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 10850 | Rake 0
Board [ ]
Seat 1: dino1980 (small blind) showed [ ] and lost with two pair, Tens and Sixes Seat 2: maximum8282 (big blind) showed [ ] and won (10850) with two pair, Tens and Eights Seat 3: itsyourlife folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 4: detballer11 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: kwabs folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 6: pokrjokr666 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 7: glovehigh27 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 8: RINationals folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 9: f-factor06 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[MANTIS01]

At this stage in the tournament there is almost no play left in the game.

There are 34/36 of you left with 30 tickets up for grabs and a number of short stacks. So we have a game of musical chairs on our hands and players know that one double-up will almost certainly guarantee a seat.

So first and foremost it is important to appreciate the SITUATION. And the situation here is that people have their fingers on the triggers.

You only have one move, no need to mess about, move all-in and ask the bb if he wants to call all-in for his tournament life. There are already 2,880 chips in this pot and you don't want or need to see a flop with this hand.

By getting tricky and min raising you give the bb an open invitation to come back over the top. You could argue that you represented a strong hand with your raise but remember it's not early in the comp, we are now at the business end of things and players are getting nervous and push-happy. So maximum instinctively goes with his pair. He thinks he could get you to fold or that he may have the best hand......which he did!!

So my answer is A.

[Swordpoker]

At this stage in the tournament there is almost no play left in the game.

There are 34/36 of you left with 30 tickets up for grabs and a number of short stacks. So we have a game of musical chairs on our hands and players know that one double-up will almost certainly guarantee a seat.

So first and foremost it is important to appreciate the SITUATION. And the situation here is that people have their fingers on the triggers.

You only have one move, no need to mess about, move all-in and ask the bb if he wants to call all-in for his tournament life. There are already 2,880 chips in this pot and you don't want or need to see a flop with this hand.

By getting tricky and min raising you give the bb an open invitation to come back over the top. You could argue that you represented a strong hand with your raise but remember it's not early in the comp, we are now at the business end of things and players are getting nervous and push-happy. So maximum instinctively goes with his pair. He thinks he could get you to fold or that he may have the best hand......which he did!!

So my answer is A.

     high is not a hand to trap with. Be happy with the blinds knowing that if you do get a call to a big raise you are probably still ahead.

[dino1980]

Thx for the responses Mantis and Sword, I x-posted this on another forum and replied there with my thoughts, btw my default play is to fold here, why get involved when i have a seat 100% locked up.

I actually think both myself and the big blind played this horrendously, him more so than me as it's his tournament life on the line.
I have absolutely no need to get involved here, none. I have a seat locked up, i should've gone for a walk or something. Although folding A-K seems increadibly weak here, we probably shouldn't get involved with anything here including aces (although we're shoving in that spot right). Now the BB's mistake IMO is that he has no need to get involved either he has a stack where he too can fold to the seat (After i lost this hand i was still 20/34 with 4000 so he's higher with 5000 chips ). Now whilst my min-raise isn't exactly a good play, it isn't 'wrong' either, because any raise here, be it a min raise or a shove, committs me to the hand so the BB has no fold equity. So why put your tournament life on the line in a coin-flip when you can fold 100% to a seat???
This is a turbo sat 5 min blinds and we're playing hand for hand. As stars gives you a 60sec time bank then at this stage obv all the shorties are stalling like crazy (as are the big stacks) so you get about 2 hands a blind level. So...if the bb in this hand lets the blinds pass through him he still has 3200 left and 7 hands to wait till he's got to post again, which all things being equal means he won't have to play another hand due to others being forced to before him. But I've certainly seen enough crazy stuff happen in satellites that make the BBs play ok.

FWIW I think if the button shoves I fold, not sure about the BB would've though. But the thing is the button has no business shoving here as he too can fold to a seat.

I just really thought this hand was interesting becuase in a satellite context it plays completely different to a tournament.

[MANTIS01]

This situation raises a very interesting point though.

You feel that you should fold the A-K here (not an unreasonable play and better than min raising imo)....and you also feel that maximum could and probably should fold his 8-8.

The situation suggests that you should both have a certain conservative mind-set.

BUT AS POKER PLAYERS INSTINCTS OFTEN TAKE OVER IN-SPITE OF THE SITUATION

You refuse to fold the A-K and maximum wont let you push him around when he's holding a pair. This is important. Even when it gets down to the business end of things poker players often still behave in an instinctive way and play back at you. All good players want to get the upper hand whatever the cost. Don't make the mistake of thinking that your opponent should be capable of making lay-downs that you can't make yourself. You can still fold your A-K to the re-raise, you must think you are behind...but you've got a genuine hand and wont be pushed around...(sound familiar??)

Incidentally, it doesn't help the poker instincts that both of you pot commit each other with each min raise. So this is why I suggest pushing with A-K here. The question you ask the bb is crisp and clear. Does he want to CALL all-in and hope he has the best hand by the river? Min raising gives the bb a chance to become the aggressor and potentially win the pot uncontested.....why afford your shorter-stacked opponent that luxury?

[dino1980]

This situation raises a very interesting point though.......

 Min raising gives the bb a chance to become the aggressor and potentially win the pot uncontested.....why afford your shorter-stacked opponent that luxury?

True, min raising is certainly a worse move than shoving or folding, I believe I made such a raise because I figured a min raise was essentially a shove as if maximum raised then i was calling, so yes, why not shove if i'm calling an all-in and put the pressure on him.

This raises another point totally O/T, Mantis, do you think the above logic follows in the situation where you check call OOP on the flop or turn (obv it depends, but in general). I mean if you're going to call a bet why not bet out and gain more info about your opponents hand. Obv, you may want to check call say, with a flush draw or to 'mix it up, or even check/call with the intention to lead the turn (4th Street thief i call that).

[MANTIS01]

A variety of factors and conditions mean that general strategies are uncommon in poker.

As a rule I always prefer betting and raising rather than calling though. If you call you only have one chance to win i.e. you showdown the best hand. Obviously by taking the lead in pots you give yourself another way to win i.e. your opponent folds.

In big multi-way pots I may check-call a flush draw if I think this is the best chance to get paid should my hand complete, but heads-up I usually bet a draw. By betting draws you can force your opponent to fold and your hand is disguised should the draw come. Nothing worse than check-calling a flush draw and seeing your opponent shut-down when the third spade comes!

Heads-up I will only check-call if I am strong or just interested to see what my opponent does next. If the turn doesn't improve matters and my opponent bets again then I'm done with the hand. So unless I'm slow-playing I know calling is putting me on the back foot. Committing all your chips pre-flop by calling is something to avoid unless you have a monster and I don't consider A high to be such a hand. Yes you can push all-in with A-K but calling all-in with it is a different matter.

In your example you are willing to call all-in with A-K....but your opponent doesn't know this so he thinks he can push you off it. There is no need to give him the room to make those assumptions. It is a pressure time in the tournament and you have the chips to exert maximum pressure on anyone at the table. A-K is a perfect hand for wielding your big stick here, don't give your opponents room to think just cut off their oxygen supply and put them to the test.

One general rule I do abide by is that it is always better to be asking the questions than answering them.

Playing a tournament and not calling...just folding and raising can develop this mind-set and is good fun too.

[AdamG]

once he reraises u know hes ahead of u and doesnt like u making a play at him this late in the guaranteed seat situation for both of u so he reraises wanting the max out of u as he knows hes ahead and therfore u should fold AK and live to fight for the seat...as u say u still got fold equity but he doesnt once he reraises so u shud fold as u know hes guna be committed and u HAVE to hit 1 of 6cards to win yet he has 46 cards (effecrtively) to hit where u do not win.

[boldie]

both of you played it very poorly but you played it the worst IMO. You just about have the seat sown up...
I 've played more sats than anything else lately and am always a bit confused as to why someone who has a seat sown up even gets involved in the game anymore. fold pre-flop..who gives a toss if it's weak or not? you are in this for the seat only..you have enough chips to guarantee your seat you can virtually stop playing.
And as soon as he reraises you you have to fold here as you still are just about guarantueed a seat if you do. any PP is a race and racing is something you simply don't do when you're this close to getting 225 for a seat.