David Singer eliminated because of a weak TD

[ihatethevic]

I have some sympathy with David Singer and don't believe it is an angle shoot.
Having played a number of the early wsop events it is clear that different floor persons and dealers imposed different rulings in the same situations.
This is so frustrating as a player. However, with regard to mobile phones, I found rulings to be standard during the first 2 weeks. On every single occasion a player had a mobile phone
in their hand when they also had cards, then their hand was declared dead. Everone was aware of the rule as it is was announced before every single tournament.
Unfortunately a situation came up which I feel makes a mockery of the floor people/TD's. With 11 players left in the $2500 event I was at a table where the button moved all in.
The small blind dwelled for 5 minutes during which the button took out his phone and started to punch buttons for a few minutes. The small blind muttered `is his hand dead', shook his head and folded.
The big blind did likewise. Because this was such a crucial stage of the tournament 2 floorpeople where watching events. After the hand was over I asked the dealer and the floorstaff why the all in player's
hand was not declared dead.They all stated that they were not aware the guy was on the phone and that he did not answer a call. I and all the other players laughed in amazement. His hand should clearly have been declared dead which would have been a terrible way to end the tournament but the guy did the most stupid thing imaginable. I may be seen as a trouble causer and angle shooter by questioning how the situation was handled but on another occasion someone will have their hand correctly ruled as dead. This inconsistency in the rules when deep in a tournament is not common sense it is total fudging and a lack of respect for the tournament and players. As a player all we ask for is consistency in decisions at all times of a tournament.
Most of this can be achieved by the correct training of floor staff and dealers by tournament directors/officials. In my experience only the Bellagio card room here in Vegas has achieved this to any sort
of reasonable standard.

I think your missing the point of the rule here. If the player is "all in" and can make no further action, he cannot gain any advantage or information from using the phone. He shouldn't be messing about with hes phone at this stage as it's disrespectfull to the other players, but thats all it is.
To declare a playes hand dead, when they are all in would be plain wrong.

[BigTomatoes]

TD making a ruling in favour of common sense - sounds like a strong TD to me, not a weak one.

 but if the rules is no phones at the table , no phoning , no texting , no touching , then a TD ruling against the rules is weak.

 there are rules and there is common sense , unfortunately the grey area is in between.

 so why have rules if they bend them for the sake of common sense ?

[kinboshi]

TD making a ruling in favour of common sense - sounds like a strong TD to me, not a weak one.

 but if the rules is no phones at the table , no phoning , no texting , no touching , then a TD ruling against the rules is weak.

 there are rules and there is common sense , unfortunately the grey area is in between.

 so why have rules if they bend them for the sake of common sense ?

That's the thing though - that isn't the rule (as far as I know).  It probably should be, but it seems there is a grey area.

Anyone know exactly what the rule with regards to phones is, and could they post it on here?

[Jon MW]

I pretty much already did Kin...

The rule is slightly ambiguous because it is along the lines of if a player is on their mobile their hand is dead. It comes down to an interpretation of 'on'.

In the Razz tournament David Oppenheim was selecting music off his phone and the dealer mucked his hand for it (he wasn't happy). Later on he actually was texting someone and the dealer just gave him a warning and allowed him to continue, so it's down to interpretation.

I don't think anybody would go along with switching it off as being covered by this though, do you?

I can't be bothered to retype so thats largely just copied and posted what my response was in the live update

... but if you want an exact quote:-

Any player on the cell phone or texting a messaging when the dealer delivers the
first card from the deck will have a dead hand.

(www.worldseriesofpoker.com)

 To me this seems to mean talking or texting, but because Americans have a problem explaining themselves clearly they've left it ambiguous but If somebody told me they were 'on the phone' I would assume they were talking on it, not just handling it.

[kinboshi]

... but if you want an exact quote:-

Any player on the cell phone or texting a messaging when the dealer delivers the
first card from the deck will have a dead hand.

(www.worldseriesofpoker.com)

 To me this seems to mean talking or texting, but because Americans have a problem explaining themselves clearly they've left it ambiguous but If somebody told me they were 'on the phone' I would assume they were talking on it, not just handling it.

I was after the exact rule - but it seems that it is greyer than a grey thing in Manchester, on a grey winter evening.  Definitely open to interpretation.

[Jon MW]

A ha! However - this is how it was reported in the live updates -

...
Controversy now, as David Singer has gone out and isn't a happy bunny. He had pushed all-in on a and his opponent's phone went off whilst the latter was thinking about making the call. The opponent apparently picked out his phone, turned it off straight away, put it back in his pocket and then said, "Call." Singer was claiming that if you touch your phone during a hand, you hand is declared dead. The floor was called and the tournament director made a ruling that the player in seat 1 was allowed to call. This ruling was supported by Nolan Dalla and Singer's failed to improve against the other player's . Singer is not impressed, but Nolan said that the turning off of the phone was done as a courtesy to the other players and not being used as an advantage.
...

It seems to me a blatant angle shoot based on hoping the officials would go for what he sees as a literal interpretation of the rules (not that a literal interpretation of ambiguous rules is technically possible), but they went for the commonsense approach instead.

However, if they were going for a 'literal' interpretation then he still doesn't have a case as the rule clearly states, "...when the dealer delivers the first card from the deck...". As his opponent was not on his phone at this point this rule, in the strictest sense, isn't applicable. QED David Singer is just a big whiny baby.

[kinboshi]

So you can use your phone and make a call when the second card is dealt?

[Jon MW]

This is what comes of having Americans draw up rules - they clearly should have got a British lawyer to do it, then nobody would  have been able to understand them but at least they would be specific.

My impression like I said is that it is meant to say you can't talk or text while playing, but the way they have worded it is just so hazy.

[matt674]

Where is the APAT and their uniform set of rules when you need them? 

(p.s. what is their rule for mobiles at the table?)

[matt674]

Where is the APAT and their uniform set of rules when you need them? 

(p.s. what is their rule for mobiles at the table?)

tis ok, i found it......

53. A player who wants to use a mobile phone must step away from the table.

Or? 

[kinboshi]

Where is the APAT and their uniform set of rules when you need them? 

(p.s. what is their rule for mobiles at the table?)

You can have them, as long as they don't get in the dealer's way...

Actually, I have no idea - but if I was writing the rules, I wouldn't allow them to be touched at the table during a hand, otherwise the player's hand is dead.

I'd also say that if they have an annoying ringtone and this can be heard by others, that the player should receive a 10-minute ban (20-minutes if it's the crazy frog).

[LLevan]

IMHO its quite simple..........just turn your phone to vibrate/silent, wait for the end of the hand then step away from the table. Thereby ensuring no ugly ringtones and no distractions to the other players at the table.
In response to the OT it would appear to be clearly angle shooting by David Singer and all this nonesence about showing weakness before the player called his allin is rubbish because by all accounts David Singer stated when interviewed that the player in question did not speak English so clearly he is after either another shot at glory or a refund of 10k both of which should IMO be denied him.

[Jon MW]

And just in case there was any doubt that he doesn't have a leg to stand on, another WSOP rule is:

Tournament Supervisors are to consider the best interest of the game and fairness as the
priority in the decision making process. Unusual circumstances may, on occasion, dictate
that the technical interpretation of the rules be ignored in the interest of fairness. The
Tournament Supervisor's decision is final.

www.worldseriesofpoker.com

I don't think this applies in this case, but even if the player on the phone was technically breaking the no phone rule then this would overrule it.

[kinboshi]

IMHO its quite simple..........just turn your phone to vibrate/silent, wait for the end of the hand then step away from the table. Thereby ensuring no ugly ringtones and no distractions to the other players at the table.

I agree.  That's what the rule should be.  But what punishment is enforced if someone's phone rings whilst they're at the table?  Should their hand be declared dead?

In response to the OT it would appear to be clearly angle shooting by David Singer and all this nonesence about showing weakness before the player called his allin is rubbish because by all accounts David Singer stated when interviewed that the player in question did not speak English so clearly he is after either another shot at glory or a refund of 10k both of which should IMO be denied him.

Agreed.

[LLevan]

If the rules state all phones to be on silent then clearly the hand must be ruled dead...........10 minute penalty IMO would be fair as long as its written into the rules...........the distraction of mobile phones is on a par with the F word to some players.