Doing deals

[KingPoker]

I shared a table with John Juanda, & I thought he was quite exceptional, perhaps the best I've ever seen.

IMO the best tournament player alive!!

And yes i would do a deal straight away, i never would have in the past but i think that was just undeserved arrogance and naievity when i first started playing.

When i started reaching a few FT's in the Cardiff Grosvenor tourneys i relied on making deals as like TK pretty much says about his tourney's i never arrived there with a lot of chips so would grind it out til i was in a position (maybe 4 handed to get a chop, even 50 quid more as a student made a difference to my life lol).

Best chop ive had in terms of chip counts was in the friday grosvenor cardiff shootout tourney where i reached HU and the guy (who probably had a 4 to 1 cl) wanted it over as was knackered- i think he was scared- and said he'd split it 50/50 so was chuffed to bits with that.

As has been previosuly said unless your're sponsored, and i somehow think i never will be lol, then you have to do whats +ev for you in the long term and deals are part and parcel of this!

I miss live poker!

[tikay]

IMO the best tournament player alive!! (John Juanda).

I wont bore you with the many of the plays I saw him make, but he's exceptional, & a nice man as well.

Twice, he Limped on my Blind, & the board came raggy raggy Paired - I recall 3-3-J on one occasion. I checked, he bet, I called or check-Raise to represent the 3, he pushed. And, of course, I Passed! OK, I'm a shit bluffer, but he really was special, & I had him covered in chips at the time, so if he was wrong, he was dead.

Then I actually flopped a set, same routine, he Passed!

[M3boy]

IMO the best tournament player alive!! (John Juanda).

I wont bore you with the many of the plays I saw him make, but he's exceptional, & a nice man as well.

Twice, he Limped on my Blind, & the board came raggy raggy Paired - I recall 3-3-J on one occasion. I checked, he bet, I called or check-Raise to represent the 3, he pushed. And, of course, I Passed! OK, I'm a shit bluffer, but he really was special, & I had him covered in chips at the time, so if he was wrong, he was dead.

Then I actually flopped a set, same routine, he Passed!

Thats the difference between a good player and a GREAT player - The ability to read situations and lay down monster hands when the KNOW they are beat.

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: dan

I had a simalar thing happen to me a few weeks ago at Walsall. I hardly ever play live, on average maybe only once every 6-8 weeks or so.

 It was a £50 one rebuy or add on. There were only 34 runners so a nice little field. Prizes were £940 for 1st, £510 for 2nd and £280 for 3rd.

 In Walsall, as I am sure is probably the same with most card rooms, everybody else knew each other but as I dont play that often I was the "outsider". Anyway we got 3 handed I had 75,000 of the 135,000 in play when the one guy turned around and asked for an equal 3 way chop. This meant I would take just over 2nd place money, about £575.

I rejected the deal without thinking about it. Within a few hands we are HU. Again the same guy offered a deal. I still had 75,000 he had 60,000. I wouldve collected £725. Now this was more tempting but I had already played this guy off a few pots on the final table and managed to get him all in, 4 handed, when I had A7 v his 57 and he got lucky, he then said I played it badly  I was in the SB him BB I limped he raised and I set him in and he called.(Thought I played it OK but never mind, I limped from the SB because everytime someone limped on his BB he raised.)

As I said £725 each, so I thought for a sec and said I will take £725 you take £700 and we leave £25 for the valets, at this he got quite funny with me and started going on about Im not arguing over £12.50 each lets just play.

I thought fine, dont mind that. 1st hand he pushed all in I had 88 and called he had J9 and hit a 9 on the turn. next hand it was all over and I came 2nd. I dont regret for one minute not doing the deal as I felt I was possibly better than him, maybe I shouldnt of called with 88 but I did not think I was being unreasonable, maybe he got funny because I was not a regular, I dont know.

Had to reply to this one because I know this chap and he recounted the very same scenario to me the following night at Walsall. He's a good guy. I think a straight chop is the way to go here because nitpicking over the odd £25 is going to rankle most people. It's as if you're determined to get the psychological upper-hand no matter how petty that might be.

You were quite right to reject the 3-way chop. Who on earth had the cheek to propose that?

But when you get to HU the straight chop is in order if offered. Why? Well because if you don't deal now you will be risking £215 to win £215 on the fragile premise that

I felt I was possibly better than him

Now if there is bags of play in the game then ok....but what happens here is that you're all-in next hand. Not exactly a HU encounter where the cream of skill is rising to the top...it's just plain gamble.

Take the deal and put the money on red or black if that's your bag.

By the way....Phil Helmuth is the best tournament player imo....and I have evidence to prove it!

[byronkincaid]

I've survived on the Circuit for a few years now, & never borrowed a penny.

I know you've got an excellent record and are without a doubt a quality winning player but don't you have about 43526328746262 different jobs, a pension and a share portfolio to fall back on before you would need to resort to borrowing money?

[Eyeofsauron]

Well Lee, your memory must be failing, as you made a deal with MickyP after knocking me out the night before the APAT event in Cardiff (which you won as well!)

Personally, I feel too many deals go on and people miss out on the opportunity to play heads up. I would want to get as much practice as I could. It could pay dividends if I ever manage to play in a prestigious tournament and make the final table, such as the WSOP main event. (Well I can dream, can't I?)

On a now defunct online site which I used to play on regularly, dynamitepoker, they had deal making facilities, which made it rather unique in that respect. Being such a small site affiliated with another poker forum, everyone knew everyone else, including the pit boss who ran the site. I was known as being a tough opponent who wouldn't make deals. I remember one game where one guy suggested I take first, as I had a massive chip lead and was favorite to win anyway, and the other two split second and third prizes equally. Naturally, I agreed to that, but most of the time I rarely made deals. Bear in mind that these weren't big games and only for a few dollars.

P.S. I found your stories on this thread very interesting Tikay, esp. about the $1000 sit and goes. I hope to be at that level one day, although I've just dropped down levels significantly. I'm using Jesus' Ferguson's bankroll challenge method to instill some bankroll discipline. It seems to be working so far

[fearisthekey]

I do a deal if I like the other players. One time it was 8-handed, but it was a really nice bunch and we were all having a nice time. Actually, for the cameraderie as we all physically 'cashed' made it easily worth it. A regular totally blew up at me, finger waving 'why the hell you deal, you could beat them, blah blah'. In fact, you know that that late in the show you're not that far from getting back to being the low stack.
I think for many people it's a psychological question: having to play for so long and have got so far all for no money (most deals I've been in have added to the normal number of players paid out). Or the fear of busting out and thinking 'if I'd only made a deal.......'.
But such emotions are no basis on which to make a decision......

[tikay]

I've survived on the Circuit for a few years now, & never borrowed a penny.

I know you've got an excellent record and are without a doubt a quality winning player but don't you have about 43526328746262 different jobs, a pension and a share portfolio to fall back on before you would need to resort to borrowing money?

Ahh, yes, that is true. Though the Shares have dived this week, and I feel guilty abouot using the Pension, being so young & nubile.

And I'm not so much a quality winning player, as a consistent & I hope competent chopper-upper.

I'm not sure I've ever won more than one or two un-chopped Tourneys at the Fessie Level, but the Stats say otherwise. Gotta love stats.

[TheChipPrince]

I would deal if the chips were 35-65 against me, even if i thought i was much much better than him/her, but have never been in that situation so wouldnt know for sure...

[RED-DOG]

I'm quite a fan of chopping it and leaving something to play for myself.

[blonde17]

 

My Pennies worth is....Always do deals ...If

 you want lots of friends in and around the game.

You will always have,,, just about, enough money to play with...week to week.

You can go on week after week , month after month , year after year grinding
it out on the tourney circuit....surviving but not exactly "Living"

You may from time to time need a par time job just to cover the tough times.

But if you derive pleasure from this type of scenario....do deals.

If on the other hand...

You don't crave friendship or the adulation of others..

If you don't want to be pestered by the so called "Nippers"

If you can stand criticism for refusal to deal..

And if one day you truly believe that you will win a decent size tourney IE life changing amount because in spite of your refusal to do deals and loss of immediate financial gain you saw the big picture and your game generally improved from all the hours of short handed and heads up play...so now as you find yourself heads up in the biggest tournament of your life you know your games up to the challenge ...then

...............Don't do deals.

Either way respect the other players views if they are different from your own
then.... you will at least have the respect of your fellow players and at the end of the day...... that is possibly worth winning.

The decision is yours...


 

[bhoywonder]

I tried a deal once in a HU KO live tourney

the TD wasnt impressed at all

as it was round 1.............

[bolt pp]

Usually no deal, but after being offered the deal when 50-50 then 60-30 it's difficult not to be interested at 30-60

[BrumBilly]

I like doing deals. If I can take 2nd place money or better in a chop then I'll agree every time at the level I play. I've had players ask me why I don't fancy myself to win outright but for me that's a false question ...whether I think I'm a better or worse player than my opponents is pretty irrelevant as I've never been in a comp that allowed me the scope to 'play' when shorthanded or headsup...when I play a comp I'm trying to get paid so if I can ensure that and may be play for a little extra then that suits me.

The WSOP argument doesn't really add up; when you get shorthanded you're already quids in to the tune of over £1m. 

[Eyeofsauron]

The WSOP argument doesn't really add up; when you get shorthanded you're already quids in to the tune of over £1m.

Of course it does. OK, when we both make the final table of the WSOP 2008 main event, I'll let to take one million if you let me have first place of eight million, plus all the plaudits, advertising, social functions for the next year, etc.