M - Is Harrington REALLY right???????

[jjandellis]

OK so we all know the score. Get low stacked M hits 5...start looking for a decent hand and push!!!! Gets any lower get worried.

Right!!! I seem to have a problem with M of 5. Every time my M hits 5 and I find a (low - medium) pp and push...I get hoofed out of the tourney.

I have just sat and played my absolute 'A game' for a day and a bit. Day one I lost 2 hands inside the first 5 hands of the tourney (was turning the radar on and tuning in!!!). After that I did not lose a single pot showed - until my exit hand. The only 3 pots I lost were laydowns (after I'd commited decent amounts of chips in some cases). One bottom pair against top pair (ironside!), one AK into KK (correct me if I'm wrong again Ironside!!) and another AK into AA.

I hit day 2 low stacked and massaged it up from an M of 3 to just above 5. Then I pick up pocket 10's, push and get busted by  (fair enough call, I ain't moaning). But yet again, I'm busted with an M of 5.

I've noticed this occuring previously and have begun to allow myself to drop to an M of 3, picking up top quality hands and THEN pushing. It usually coincides with a rush of cards too. Doing this I have enabled myself to hang on and hang on, much deeper into the tourney - and then get my rush of cards and hey presto.

So my question is...

Is it worth ignoring all hands at an M of 5 until you get qq,kk,aa - even if it means dropping to 3???

Is it better to play the stop/go when you have an M of 5?

Opinions please!!!

[Tragic]

You double up with an M of 3, the blinds hit you again but you've just doubled up so it's OK, what's your new M?

[pswnio]

I push into any unopened pot with an M of 5-7 (slightly dependent on chip stacks behind you). You can't wait for an M of 3 - you'll get called and even if you double up, you're going to have to push again shortly. If you double up with an M of 7, you give yourself a bit of breathing space. You also have a little bit of fold equity with an M of 7. Allowing yourself to be blinded away to an M of 3 is criminal in my opinion.

[Tragic]

And in case that came across as glib and uninformative, you will not find the hands on a regular enough basis to double from ur M of 3 to  5/6 and onwards, so it IS better to take a slightly bigger risk at M of 5 to have a chance to be competitive again. Categorically.

[CelticGeezeer]

Yep he is pretty much right, but it is not the eleventh commandment.

[Stone]

You also have a little bit of fold equity with an M of 7.

I think this is the key to all of Harringtons discussions, its how many chips do you have to make someone pass a marginal to reasonable hand. At this weekends APAT there was a great example at my table where Suraj Shah was down to 7K blinds 300-600, so he litterally bullied the table for 20 mins re-raising with the all in move (Suraj went on to the final day, out 13th). The key to Suraj's play was that he opened the pot with the All in, I was two positions to his left on 4.8K and was dealt trash while he was on his bully mission, nothing I could do.
I eventually got the chance to open the pot with  all in, got 1 caller with  , so a 70-30 dog and I inevitably got the round of applause. Personally I was happy with my exit hand, it was my semi-bluff a round earlier that killed me when I got raised off a useless hand by a very tight player for half my chips.

So my learning is why wait till M=5, lets push earlier when you can make even the big stacks fold!

[MANTIS01]

Make no mistake 10-10 vs A-J is a perfect gamble for the current situation you find yourself in.

When you get to this sort of M your choices are diminishing as quickly as your chips and you are compelled to throw caution to the wind with a situation that may be more marginal than you would like...but is completely necessary considering the circumstances. A tournament is not an exact science where you can plot a course to victory by avoiding risky situations. Yes you could wait for an eventuality that may never materialise... and if it does actually come you can push with A-A...face an automatic call and still loose to 5-7.

Survival is massively important in tournaments but when you start to loose touch then thoughts of surviving a bit longer must be traded for competitiveness. This gamble becomes essential on your road back to being competitive and if your rush of cards happen after this winning gamble then hey presto...you have the chips to capitalise. This gamble is then seen as the spark that reignited your chances of success. Avoiding this gamble DOES NOT offer any guarantees that future gambles are going to be successful....but the fact remains that you do have to gamble.

I do like this more than the A-7 example because if you get called you may well have the best hand but with A-7 that is quite unlikely.

[matt674]

i've never read harrington and probably not likely to unless it comes out in an easy to read cartoon version with cute fluffy jungle creatures so can't really comment about "m".

however by playing poker on a regular basis you know when you need to start "getting busy" if your fast becoming a short stack and by playing at the table you should already have established the best people to target. work on your own game of figuring out when its right to push and when its right to wait for a better spot - don't rely on a book telling you "this is the best time - do it now regardless" because there will be many different factors in your individual tournament which the theory doesnt take into account.

[matt674]

It usually coincides with a rush of cards too. Doing this I have enabled myself to hang on and hang on, much deeper into the tourney - and then get my rush of cards and hey presto.

this phrase interests me - do you have any statistical evidence to back it up or is it likely that it is just your normal law of averages but because you remember the one time that you were short stack and somehow managed to battle back from the brink of dispair to make a decent cash but you forget the other nine/fifteen/twenty five times when you got knocked out well short of the money.

[temp0r]

if you don't play by the M strat then you're basically not playing to win. which basically means you wont ever win in the long run. obviously it's open to abit of variation given the table type and tournament structure but if you find a top top inet player who ignores the M then let me know.

[George2Loose]

I think you have to push there- u have a good pocket pair and at some point unfortunately you have to take a race. Otherwise you're playing short stack poker all the way. You're unlikely to wake up with a premium hand unfort. unless you run like a God.

I keep thinking about my open shove with A10 utg. I had 180k with the blinds about to hit me at 10/20- I should have folded. I would much rather shove with 87 than A10 at that stage. I just felt like play was tightening up with the final table looming.

Anyway sorry for the thread hi jack!!! Shove all day- and sorry about the AJ Lee..... was a pleasure playing with you!