Tournament Hand of the Week: September 10th

[RichEO]

Initially I think I would have folded AJ pre flop.

On the flop I am going to check raise, mainly for information. But also, the check is likely to entice a continuation bet or bluff even if he doesn't have an Ace (maybe he has JJ). Now that I have caught a bit of the flop I am not just going to let go without having one bet at it. If he calls I am done with the hand and put him on AK or 77. If he overbets the pot I might abandon my plan of check raising, simply becuase it will cost too many chips to find out where I am with this borderline hand.

After the turn. If I have check raised the flop and he called, I should have put him on AK or 77. So technically I should be check folding now (and I would - maybe ). If I'd played it like you and check called the flop then I am now going to continue in this trappy/pot controling method and check call. If he has you beat you are not volunteering any chips to the pot and if he doesn't you are enticing him to bluff. But becuase I/you haven't asked any questions of him (raised) I am not sure where I am and don't want to face any big bets. I call 900, check the river to him and hope he bets the same.

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: doubleup:

Re your thoughts on this hand - this is a gross play at this stage in the tournament and you are always going to be hoping you have the best hand.  I dont mind check calling a rag flop - but check calling when your hand is either a set or an ace is appalling play and if you ran into an idiot then well done.

I wouldn't mind some elaboration on your thoughts doubleup. Just to say this is appalling play and that's that doesn't help me much. I give the choices that I had on the flop and quite a thorough explanation as to why I choose to check-call. Which option do you choose and why do you play that way? It would then be good if you could show why the theory behind the choices I discount doesn't make sense. I appreciate that you fold pre-flop...you have stated that fact twice, but I am interested to know what you do NOW and why?

Also, why are you so adverse to the notion that you may have the best hand? A player raises pre-flop and then he puts in a standard continuation bets on a board that is a peach for such a play and as such you quickly assume you are beat. Why?

Yes your opponent is continuing to bet but he is clearly not JUST betting. What is your opinion of the amounts he is betting? What hand do you put him on and what evidence do you see that is compelling enough to make you fold?

If you have no thoughts at all other than "he is betting" then I agree you are hoping that you have the best hand and should maybe fold.

Considering the action so far what hand do we put him on and what would he have done with this hand is we bet out or check/raise?

[doubleup]

Posted by: doubleup:

Re your thoughts on this hand - this is a gross play at this stage in the tournament and you are always going to be hoping you have the best hand.  I dont mind check calling a rag flop - but check calling when your hand is either a set or an ace is appalling play and if you ran into an idiot then well done.

I wouldn't mind some elaboration on your thoughts doubleup. Just to say this is appalling play and that's that doesn't help me much. I give the choices that I had on the flop and quite a thorough explanation as to why I choose to check-call. Which option do you choose and why do you play that way? It would then be good if you could show why the theory behind the choices I discount doesn't make sense. I appreciate that you fold pre-flop...you have stated that fact twice, but I am interested to know what you do NOW and why?

Also, why are you so adverse to the notion that you may have the best hand? A player raises pre-flop and then he puts in a standard continuation bets on a board that is a peach for such a play and as such you quickly assume you are beat. Why?

Yes your opponent is continuing to bet but he is clearly not JUST betting. What is your opinion of the amounts he is betting? What hand do you put him on and what evidence do you see that is compelling enough to make you fold?

If you have no thoughts at all other than "he is betting" then I agree you are hoping that you have the best hand and should maybe fold.

Considering the action so far what hand do we put him on and what would he have done with this hand is we bet out or check/raise?

I did qualify my statement by stating that we could continue with the hand if you had a read that indicated that you might have the best hand, but as we have no real information about our opponents, I can't see where we can get this.  I played a tourney in Paris towards the end of last year and took a couple of levels to realise that a large number of players simply couldn't stop bluffing - here we have some information that makes a hand like this playable and profitable.  The nature of the board in this hand makes our holding obvious and a competent opponent shouldn't be betting the turn with a hand that we beat unless he is knowingly bluffing.  We have no idea if the opponent is competent or prone to bluffing, so without this information I have to take the risk of folding the best hand.
 

[MANTIS01]

Ok doubleup well with regard to this...

I did qualify my statement by stating that we could continue with the hand if you had a read that indicated that you might have the best hand, but as we have no real information about our opponents, I can't see where we can get this.

It is my contention that body language and bet size of my opponent gave me sufficient information to continue with this hand. That was my own particular read. My inclination was that strong body language and a strong bet was indicative of a hand A-J could be ahead of. I felt at the time he would not act/bet in such a way if he held A-K or better. The merits of this theory are open for debate. There are pros and cons concerning the strategy of reads from such information and the hand is marginal...hence why it has been posted. To describe this as "gross" or "appalling" play is a little strong and a bit dismissive in my view. But of course you are entitled to hold this view.

The nature of the board in this hand makes our holding obvious and a competent opponent shouldn't be betting the turn with a hand that we beat unless he is knowingly bluffing

Would a holding of A-10 for example not fit his action? And if he is holding A-10 you feel certain he would put us on a better hand? Also doesn't my appalling and unconventional play actually disguise my holding rather than make it obvious?

The problem I have with relying on history reads as the foundation of play in the early stages is that it is clearly impossible to gather such information straight away. So you are caught between not playing at all or relying on other factors to make decisions. Bet amounts and body language are two such factors. In your Paris example you may have exposed the bluffers much quicker and won more pots by gambling with such info rather than waiting until that fact was obvious before taking advantage. Just a thought not a definitive view.

[boldie]

I'm with TK on when to take the reload. of noone does I won't..of 3 or more players do (in my case probably 2 or more) I do aswell as I want their entire stacks.

On the hand itsself...I could call pre-flop because they're suited, but don't like the call very much as I don't like AJ very much..but because they are suited and look pretty I'll peel off the 200.

Bin it is fine or reraise with it if you want to establish ground rules about your blinds (what a silly thing to do at blindlevels of 25-50..who gives a crap about 50??? Really to call here because it's your BB and you want to let people know they aren't getting it for free is beyond stupid and something only an amateur would do. You probably won't be sitting with these guys when the blinds get to be interesting so let them have the 50)

OK you hit a nice flop, I don't like the checkcall here. If you have called pre-flop to establish some ground nrules about your BB you have to take a bit of control here somehow. You either lead out (and you'll get pushed off the hand by his reraise) or you check raise. A checkraise is BY FAR the better option in my opinion. You still have 7500 chips back and your first 7500 are only there so you can see how much you can turn them into. (Stupid chips I call them)
But you have to ask him a question here.

His bet of 500 into a 750 pot is a very respectable bet..not too much at all for anyone holding AK or even a set. (As I've said before in other posts..I bet my sets about 90% of the time) but it doesn't mean he has anything..he could..but you don't know yet. (which is why calling here is something I don't like)

Now the ace comes on the turn..GREAT, except you still don't know where you are in the hand. Does he have the case Ace with a better Kicker? Has he just housed up? Either way..checking here is awful. It screams "I'VE GOT THE ACE..PLEASE TAKE MY CHIPS IF YOURS IS BETTER" So he does what anyone with an Ace or a full house would do. He bets half the pot. You've got the ace..you're already invested in the pot and you're thinking you just struck gold and "I've still got a back-up 7500" will pop into your head when he makes all your chippies go in if he is indeed ahead. If he's not ahead he'll check the river after you flatcall on the turn. either way..there's no way that against a decent, non-maniacal, player you'll get anymore chips out of him unless he's ahead. So from now on it's immaterial whether you checkraise or flatcall him here and lead out on the turn (or even check it to him on the turn) If he's ahead you lose your chips and if he's behind you'll only win the pot as it stands. ..unless a miracle Jack appears on the river.

just my two pennies of course.

[MANTIS01]

Thanks for your views Boldie

I chose this hand because it is marginal and as you can see I am playing it in a way that I knew would cause discussion. As I said earlier I play this hand much differently later on and would probably check-raise the flop myself. But here I decide to get a bit trappy with it after the flop and was interested to see the response. The two things that have surprised me so far are...

1. We are quite quick to except we are behind and are fearing the worst. e.g. Does he have the case ace with a better kicker?...this accounts for 2 hands...Does he have the case ace with a worse kicker?...this accounts for many more hands. Does he have the full-house?...maybe. Does he not have the full-house?...much more likely. It is interesting that people are viewing this quite negatively.

2. We are also quick to offer our opponent credit for being a good player as a kind of default mentality. But the reality is that many players in tournaments are either average or pretty poor.

A couple of things in response to your post if I may Boldie. Firstly, you say...

So he does what anyone with an Ace or a full house would do. He bets half the pot.

I like this point a lot and think it is spot on the money. But this is not what he does on the flop. He fires out three-quaters of the pot. If he bet say 300 on the flop it changes the complexion of the hand for me. As I said before, the table was very cagey, and as I recall we hadn't seen a turn card up to this point...flop bets were winning pots. Now here is a guy that really jams in 500 chips...that just struck me as ott for a big hand.

Secondly...

If he's not ahead he'll check the river after you flatcall on the turn. either way..there's no way that against a decent, non-maniacal, player you'll get anymore chips out of him unless he's ahead. So from now on it's immaterial whether you checkraise or flatcall him here and lead out on the turn (or even check it to him on the turn) If he's ahead you lose your chips and if he's behind you'll only win the pot as it stands

If I check-raise the flop here I get an inferior hand to fold and I loose the additional 900 chips he bets on the turn. Also I am pretty certain an inferior ace would pay me a value bet on the river should I decide to go down that road. It seems that I was confident with my hand after I saw the flop bet and the way Blue-Cap was acting. My intention on the flop was a trappy one and as such check-raising and forcing the guy out was not on the agenda for me. Maybe the double-chance was allowing me to play freely but even though I am not a fan of A-J myself I felt good with it here. I wouldn't play so riskily later and I am usually a TAG player but you do have to gamble to win tournaments and I wanted to follow my instincts here.

[MANTIS01]

OK Final Part of HOTW. It's sparked an interesting debate this week so thanks to everyone for their contributions.

Thoughts on the Turn:The second ace on the turn didn't really change anything for me and I was always planning to check whatever card appeared. Blue-Cap quietly bets half the pot now and I found this quite interesting. The information I now had from both his bets meant that I thought I had a fair idea what he was holding. Even though A-J is a worrying hand I did feel confident I was ahead.

After he bets I think about raising but decide to wait until the river drops and then "fire" in a big bet myself to make it look a bit fishy. I am almost certain he will call or fold if I do this. I do want the call however.

Lets's go to the River....

Part III

I opt to continue with my trappy mentality, call the 900 turn bet, and go to the river with 3,550 chips in the pot.

The River

The river arrives and it is the

 

Making a board of

        

So the action is on me and I follow through with my plan to put in bet. I aggressively jam in 2,750 chips and try to look a little nervy hoping he doesn't fold. What would you do in this situation? Is check-calling the safer option?

Blue-Cap thinks about it and then pushes ALL-IN. To be honest this took me completely by surprise...I never expected this for a second. So the question is What do you do now and what hand do you put your opponent on? You still have 3,000 chips left and have now gone from a position of confidence to being completely lost. Are you able to find a fold? Would he do this with say A-10 and so should you call? Is this the dilemma I have asked for by playing A-J oop and getting too clever with it?

The result will appear on Saturday....

[boldie]

I don't really understand why you would be completely lost when he moves all in to be honest.It's pretty much what I said would happen. Now on the turn you've decided that you're ahead, what makes you lost now? You've decided you're ahead on the turn and the river (unless he has A4 or pocket 4's..lol even 35 I guess.) doesn't change anything if you thought it was wise to betout on the river it is wise to call here.

[doubleup]

You've engineered yourself into a position that you are getting better than 3-1 that your opponent is a very poor player and is either value betting a worse hand or making a poorly timed bluff, so you have no option but to call.

[MANTIS01]

I suppose the crucial question about this hand for me was this. In spite of the marginal nature of my hand, rightly or wrongly I am confident I am ahead on the flop. In my mind I am still trapping on the turn. When it gets to the river I am thinking about how to extract the maximum out of my opponent. The sort of hands I am putting him on mean that he will only fold or call.

So my surprise comes from the fact that he does something that I don't anticipate. If he has say A-10 or A-9 for instance he surely can't push here? If we put ourselves in his shoes it must look like we flopped a set or similar...no draws and check-calling all the way. So because I have gone so deep with this hand because of my own reading of the situation would it be possible to do an about turn at this late stage? Maybe he has got A-K and I have read it all wrong? But could he push now even with A-K? Surely he's stronger than that so maybe he has A-7 and just bet it strongly on the flop? His push on the end has blown my theory to bits and so wouldn't continuing to have faith with this theory allow me to fold? This is I think where not knowing your player is the massive handicap that doubleup talks about. So let's say that we know this guy is a very good tight player...would it be possible to fold now with the benefit of that info? Or are the mathematics of the situation and my own acting weak on the end good enough reasons to call?

[tikay]

Reload early? It depends on what the rest of the table do. If 3 or 4 of them do, I will, if none do, I won't.

A-J OOP? At this stage, BIN, quick. Even if we are establishing "rules", this will only serve to advertise negatively.

Later in the comp, same hand, same pos - BIN.

I'm only playing this hand OOP when it gets to the push stage.

Early doors, I'm gonna be Sponge Bob, soaking up info, watching tricks, see who's dancing, where we gonna get our chips from, who can be pushed around, who's the Albert who can't Pass. Once we done that, we can get started. Like, 2 hours in.

Finally found out his gameplan.

But I'll have forgotten it by tonight. Beware old geezers with misreads & bad memories, they are dangerous.

[RichEO]

I think you should definately check call the river (or check then maybe call ). You have gotten this far by check calling. It's possible he is still on a complete bluff and you might as well let him try it again.

Your river bet shows you are willing to put 2,750 in the pot, it's unlikely he will bluff more than this so it will likely be an amount you can make an easy ish call of. Even if he has a full house, he will probably value bet the pot size or less, so you get off cheaper / similarly here too.

Betting hoping for him to call with a worse hand puts him specifically on something like A10 or A9 as you have already said. Those hands shouldn't reraise, so realistically you shouldn't call his all-in on the end. But, it's a tough decision Where will 3,000 chips get you? You have the chance at 12,000 right here. And ther is the 2nd chance as backup.

[snoopy1239]

Apologies for the delay, the conclusion to this hand will be revealed later today.

[RichEO]

Apologies for the delay, the conclusion to this hand will be revealed later today.

83 minutes left to make good on that statement 

[CrestOfaWave]

17 minutes...