TPTK for all your chips

[TightEnd]

14 left in a £100 comp

5 paid

You have 13,000 blinds 300-600

well outside the top 5 chips

In MP you raise on a 7 handed table to 2,000 with 

77dave flat calls on the button with a big stack

shortstack pushes his last 3,400 in on the SB

BB "Danish" flat calls, just covering you in chips

Both you and 77dave automatically flat call

4 way with 13,600 in the pot

It comes 

Danish insta pushes

She is a somewhat unconventional player, overplays hands quite a bit and here she could have to my mind

any of QJ,KJ

a flush draw

two pair unlikely

an overpair? unconventionally played, OOP against two auto callers of the push

With a chance to treble up, I suppose I do the old "put her on a hand (KJ?) you can beat" trick and call.

Against a steady player I pass here

She shows 

 
Criticial appraisal please.

[bolt pp]

aaaaaahhhhh, bless, are we feeling fragile because we got outplayed by a girl?

fold into the dry side pot, you gotta worry about the button as well.

If i was on the button and mid pos raiser folded i might call against an "unconventional player" in pos but it's player dependent

I usually look for a lot more than TPTK in a dry side pot and pos helps

Even though you were well outside the top 5 you wernt in trouble, a dry side pot is definently an "if in doubt fold" turn out for me.

though i'm probably wrong as i havnt read as many books as Byronkincaid and he might be able to tell you how some book he read said to play it better.

[doubleup]

I always worry when players cold call for a big % of their chips - not sure if I could have got away from this though, but maybe A) cold calling + B) pushing makes it a fold.

[AlexMartin]

Its Danish, im all-in. Although she does seem to be playing MUCH better poker these days.

[TightEnd]

Its Danish, im all-in. Although she does seem to be playing MUCH better poker these days.

not sure thats true. Moments of overplaying madness abound.Me too if this hand was anything to go by

[celtic]

Richard i find that she makes this type of play with AA KK or QQ quite a lot in the last few months.Have even seen her limp reraise utg with JJ pre flop for 20k or so. If she is 'instapushushing' here i am 'instafolding', it is a hardish laydown but purely cos of who it is, and if you are in front then so be it, no such thing as a bad laydown etc....., tho even if you are in front you can be assured that Jim ( 77Dave) is waiting with J3, 35 etc, either way youre buggered!!

vince

[MANTIS01]

First and foremost I would say that it is virtually impossible to put Danish on aces in this example. She is effectively the last player yet to speak after the all-in under-raise. When it reaches her there are 8,300 chips in the pot...which equates to more than half her stack. So pushing here to isolate the all-in is a massively favourable gamble for such a big chunk of chips. She decides to avoid the logical route and flat-calls instead. This is a relatively bizarre move because she must know that you and 77dave are priced into the hand. So to all intents and purposes we must deduce that she has a hand that she is happy to multi-way with against three opponents for lots of chips.

Let's decide to give her a barrel load of undue credit and say that her play has disguised her aces fabulously and her strategy, although very risky, is superbly trappy and incredibly cunning. But try marrying that assessment with her post-flop play. Bang Bang...ALL-IN. She u-turns dramatically. Check-raising is consistent with her pre-flop mentality but pushing is at odds with it. Why take the risk of letting you see the flop at all if she is not planning to get paid to the hilt with her bullets?

I think, as you say, a suited Q-J or K-J fit her actions far more appropriately. A hand she would be happy to multi-way with pre-flop and when hitting tp post-flop would push to isolate the all-in. So good luck to anyone who can find a fold based on her actions alone.

However, if you are determined to find a fold here TightEnd there is only one answer I can find. And it is to do with your own pre-flop expectations and the value you put on the strength of your hand.

If you had the ability to push all-in when the action got back around to you would you do so? I would imagine not. You are more inclined to play the potential of your hand in what is going to be a big pot rather than push the somewhat fragile strength of it pre-flop. So you are making a VALUE CALL...much in the same way as you would with say    .
 
If you were playing 7-8 and the flop came down 2-4-8 would you call all-in for your tournament life now? Again I would imagine not. When we make value calls with suited connectors we are looking for better than one pair to commit with. You may say    are not suited connectors...but that is directly linked to how much you value the hand.

In HOTW we have been discussing A-J and much of the opinion has been relatively negative towards it's strength. Most say it's trash and should be binned because even if you kop one pair on the flop you are still likely to be dominated by a plethora of other holdings. Is this your view of A-J? If so it is thoroughly inconsistent to make a "value call" with these suited connectors, albeit big ones, and then call all-in with just one pair. Surely you are looking for two pair or better with such a hand? So if you have a firm strategy of folding A-J to pre-flop raises as standard because of the trouble it can get you into if you hit....then it would be inconsistent to now call with one pair...because of the trouble you could NOW be in. It is a question of how religiously you follow your own convictions. That would be disciplined and refined poker of the highest order though...but it is certainly a standard to aspire to for those who don't value the hand.

Other factors of player behind and fd mean you may still loose anyway and are things to consider.

I think I call here though based on putting Danish on a lower jack and not hating A-J all that much.

[77dave]

As it goes i had pocket

A tough spot  of richard here amost impossible to put Danish on an over pair   knowing her Kd3d is a more likely hand

I agree with above posts that when someone moves allin on a dry sidepot im looking for more than TPTK to call all my chips off with but as also stated it was Danish

Also there is a chance that i have hit the flop and you have no info on me so far as im last to speak i had but could of been or just as easily

Basically i think we can put this one down to the fact that she has played it badly preflop and has been rewarded for it

i actually think she intended to raise preflop but got confused by the action she said later she tried to min- raise u preflop but said call instead

[celtic]

F*ck*ng hell, you have really analised that to the death!!! Do U know danish or have you ever played against her? My experiences have been frightening. She only puts her chips at risk with an overpair, set or 2 pair on that flop ( certainly recently anyway) She loves calling with AA, KK QQ etc then pushing on the flop, i think her thinking is let them hit part of the flop as they wont be able to fold. if she has 10 10 or less then she is 99% to check this flop then huff & puff for half an hour then fold telling everyone who will listen that she got unlucky rather than push to isolate pre-flop, Yo're theory is great but when it comes to Danish you have to play the player rather than the situation.

[77dave]

F*ck*ng hell, you have really analised that to the death!!! Do U know danish or have you ever played against her? My experiences have been frightening. She only puts her chips at risk with an overpair, set or 2 pair on that flop ( certainly recently anyway) She loves calling with AA, KK QQ etc then pushing on the flop, i think her thinking is let them hit part of the flop as they wont be able to fold. if she has 10 10 or less then she is 99% to check this flop then huff & puff for half an hour then fold telling everyone who will listen that she got unlucky rather than push to isolate pre-flop, Yo're theory is great but when it comes to Danish you have to play the player rather than the situation.

total tosh vinny  she busted my KK with J6 on wed night   if you think all danish plays is big poccket pairs i think you need to take another look

K3 Q4 J6  all hands that she will play

[celtic]

Jim

My point is this is how i have seen her play KK qq or even AA over the last few months, its like groundhog day and every time she has got paid, she seems scared to re-raise pre flop even with premium hands. I know she has a wide range of hands etc but i have seen her reluctancly fold kj kq A9 suited etc pre flop even in amulti way pot. It was just my opinion that in my experience of playing against her, if she is pushing here then i am folding.................

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: celtic

F*ck*ng hell, you have really analised that to the death!!!

I thought this was the Poker Hand Analysis section of the forum. Could be wrong though....

[celtic]

 

Posted by: celtic

F*ck*ng hell, you have really analised that to the death!!!

I thought this was the Poker Hand Analysis section of the forum. Could be wrong though....

Point taken, was just trying to relay my experiences of playing against danish over the last few months, Jim is right in what he say bout hand ranges etc but for me given who it is and how it has been played them im a folder. I'm not saying that he should have put her on AA, he may not even have ever witnessed danish playing a big pair like this... I have at least 5 times and thats where my opinion comes from. My response is specific to the player he is up against. Think yours is more more generic?

[MANTIS01]

Yep, I think playing style is one factor to consider when looking at the whole package. But nothing can be set in stone because people only have tendancies. I change my playing style around when playing with people who know me...a whole lot of players do this.

The bit about how much TightEnd values the strength of A-J is specific to him though and is probably more useful if he doesn't know the player. Do find it an odd way to play aces though. He describes her as "uncoventional" which is rather polite I think. Lots of risk for little reward here.

[TightEnd]

my answer to the AJ question here is by raising pre flop I am in my mind stealing..I don't want to be called

I'm called by an active aware player on the button with a huge range...immediately this happens and I am OOP for the rest of the hand I'm cautious

The short stack pushes in and Danish flat calls

AJ not strong enough here to re-reaise to isolate

So I proceed to the flop wanting to hit or prepared to check it down into a dry side pot

One thing I missed, and which I will learn from is facing the all in I didn't give a lot fo thoguht to the player behind me


oh and Danish, what a horror

last night in the second level she limps utg with Q9 is called on the button and the blinds

On a Q high flop she does the whole lot to KQ on an unimproved board

One day I'll be a beneificary of this donk-ness!