What is a semi professional player?

[Jon MW]

I think the problem arises as there are essentially 2 completely valid definitions for professional.

One is based on how good you are - and the other is based on whether you earn an income from it.

Both of these have implications when you try and extract the definition of semi-pro from it.

Personally I think the football analogy is the closest to poker.

Kick around in the park               : know how to play poker but don't do it very often  - amateur
sunday/saturday league football   : play regularly, try to get better - play events like APAt for example - good amateur
Conference South/North/National: play in festival events, get a few good results - but ultimately their profession is their day to day job - semi-pro
Football League                        : essentially make a living from poker, occasionally topped up with other work, often poker related (eg journalism), some sponsorship if lucky - Professional
Premier League                         : Poker superstar, sponsored, brings out books and dvd's etc. - Professional


There are probably a lot of holes in this analogy as I pretty much made it up as I went along, but I think it covers the gist of what I percieve to be the difference between amateur/semi-pro/pro with regards to poker

[AndrewT]

I know one thing - I am definitely not a professional player.

*clutches APAT ticket tightly*

[HarlemShuffle]

I would say a professional poker play is someone who relies on poker for a percentage of their income and the other percentage comes from poker related sources. E.g. sponsorship, tv commentary, books, magazines, etc. If playing poker was taken out of the equation they would need to find another job to compensate. Similar to pro golfers. a lot work for clubs and give lessons etc.

Semi pro – someone who relies on poker for a percentage of their wage and the other percentage comes from non poker sources.

Amateur – some who plays poker but doesn’t rely on it at all.

I don’t think there is a proper definition but that’s how I look at it.

[RED-DOG]

I know one thing - I am definitely not a professional player.

*clutches APAT ticket tightly*

In that case I definitely am a professional player.

*Mourns absence of APAT ticket*

[rudders]

I think the problem arises as there are essentially 2 completely valid definitions for professional.

One is based on how good you are - and the other is based on whether you earn an income from it.

Both of these have implications when you try and extract the definition of semi-pro from it.

Personally I think the football analogy is the closest to poker.

Kick around in the park               : know how to play poker but don't do it very often  - amateur
sunday/saturday league football   : play regularly, try to get better - play events like APAt for example - good amateur
Conference South/North/National: play in festival events, get a few good results - but ultimately their profession is their day to day job - semi-pro
Football League                        : essentially make a living from poker, occasionally topped up with other work, often poker related (eg journalism), some sponsorship if lucky - Professional
Premier League                         : Poker superstar, sponsored, brings out books and dvd's etc. - Professional


There are probably a lot of holes in this analogy as I pretty much made it up as I went along, but I think it covers the gist of what I percieve to be the difference between amateur/semi-pro/pro with regards to poker

I like this - was just composing a similar post- its just that yours was better.  paying Tax, daf, is a red herring and not really the point. We teach the students about professionalism and if you want to be pedantic poker has to be a profession before its exponents can be deemed trult professional.  " Professions are at least to a degree self-regulating, in that they control the training and evaluation processes that admit new persons to the field, and in judging whether the work done by their members is up to standard."  er..... nope

I feel this too tight and prefer this....

A professional can be either a person in a profession (certain types of skilled work requiring formal training/education) or in sports (a sportsman/sportwoman doing sports for payment).

This makes the sporting analogy a good one and fits what we do.

[kinboshi]

I think the problem arises as there are essentially 2 completely valid definitions for professional.

One is based on how good you are - and the other is based on whether you earn an income from it.

Both of these have implications when you try and extract the definition of semi-pro from it.

Personally I think the football analogy is the closest to poker.

Kick around in the park               : know how to play poker but don't do it very often  - amateur
sunday/saturday league football   : play regularly, try to get better - play events like APAt for example - good amateur
Conference South/North/National: play in festival events, get a few good results - but ultimately their profession is their day to day job - semi-pro
Football League                        : essentially make a living from poker, occasionally topped up with other work, often poker related (eg journalism), some sponsorship if lucky - Professional
Premier League                         : Poker superstar, sponsored, brings out books and dvd's etc. - Professional


There are probably a lot of holes in this analogy as I pretty much made it up as I went along, but I think it covers the gist of what I percieve to be the difference between amateur/semi-pro/pro with regards to poker

Good analogy Jon.  I will use it as my own in the future.

[bolt pp]

I also think that a lot of the younger online "pros" with marginal bankrolls probably still live with their parents and dont have to worry about, gas, electric, water rates, rent/mortgage, council tax, maintenance and repairs, food shopping ect, or even having a spouse and child to support

I'd like to see how many of the $0.50/1-$1/2 teenage multi table "pro" grinders  could play with the same proficiency if they lived on their own and had to play for a LIVING in the true sense of the word

[HarlemShuffle]

Thats the same for any proffesion tho

[bolt pp]

Thats the same for any proffesion tho

no it isnt, you go to work, serve burgers, type things into a computer or whatever you do and get a basic wage memorialised in a contract you've signed with your employer, the money you earn comes from them which is a set amount in the majority of jobs, if you arn eanough to pay your bills working in mcdonalds then a couple of dropped cheeseburgers or overchanging someone dosnt have the same potential implications as a couple of dropped buy ins or period of substandard play.

the pressure of a boss saying "thats the third cheesburger you've dropped this week, come on fix up"  differes emmensly from making bad plays due to tilt, bankroll managment and running bad, It's a lot easier to gamble the roof over your head playing pro poker than it is sitting in an office typing all day

[DaveShoelace]

Q What do you do when a poker player stands at your door
A Pay him for the pizza

I presume I fall into the vague 'semi pro' category. I spend about 60% of my time playing and the other 40% writing for poker magazines and pokernews.com. About 70% of my income comes from playing and 30% from writing, but when Im having a bad patch I write more and can easily make a living from writing alone (If you ever see my face in WPT magazine more than twice an issue, it means I'd had a really bad month the issue before   ). Most of my income comes from playing, but without the safety net I have of writing I'm not sure if I could do it. I also love writing as much as playing, so its not just a safety net.

Most 'pro players' have their fingers in many pies. Look at all the Dusk Till Dawn pros, many of whom work for the club as well as representing it at the tables. Even the biggest names do other things, even if it is just essentially marketing themselves like the Hellmuths and the Brunsons.

Then there is the category of 'professionals' who actually are just, well, unemployed. The example of the college student making their way through college playing online is a good one. There are also plenty of players who spend all their time in casinos playing poker, but are actually broke - we all know a few players who are playing with borrowed money trying to avoid work.

I'm not sure what point im trying to make anymore. I think semi pro is anyone who relies upon poker to pay, even if only slightly, the bills.

[HarlemShuffle]

It's like comparing a door-to-door sales man living at home with his parents to one who has bills to pay.

[matt674]

I'm not sure what point im trying to make anymore. I think semi pro is anyone who relies upon poker to pay, even if only slightly, the bills.

I would have said this was the other way round to be honest - in 2004 and 2005 i made a lot more playing poker than i did in my job and at one point was on the verge of giving up the job to solely play poker. At the time i would have called myself a semi professional but i did it the other way round.

I decided that i wanted to keep the job as this gave me a guaranteed income which meant that the bills got paid and i had food on the table. What i made from playing poker allowed me to buy "treats", if i had a bad month on the tables it wasnt the end of the world because my poker bankroll and my bills and food were seperate.

[bolt pp]

It's like comparing a door-to-door sales man living at home with his parents to one who has bills to pay.

yeah, and?

this is a poker forum not glazing direct

I eluded to, in my previous post that "most", but not all traditional jobs have a basic wage, the magnitude of playing professional online poker for a living is such that i question wether or not the young online pros with modest bankrolls would function as well with the aforementioned multitude of responsibilities, also playing professional poker is a tad more sophisticated than walking up to a door and saying " hi, i'm john from glass up your arse, wanna buy some windows"?

[Dingdell]

I'm not sure what point im trying to make anymore. I think semi pro is anyone who relies upon poker to pay, even if only slightly, the bills.

What i made from playing poker allowed me to buy "treats", if i had a bad month on the tables it wasnt the end of the world because my poker bankroll and my bills and food were seperate.

That what it is for me. My income from my business pays for life in general and anything I win at poker is for treats and sometimes using for rainy days. Initially I had to use money from income to pay for buy ins but now I have a stash under the bed so to speak that covers the poker so it's self funding.

I love the football analogy from Jon - I think a lot of us are sunday league players then?

[rudders]

are semi pros allowed to play APAT events?