Alternates

[Tractor]

Can anyone explain to me how the alternates system works or people just running late?
I understand the bit about not adding new tables and just filling in the seats but what happens about the chip stacks?
If someone joins say ten minutes before the end of the rebuy period just he just sit down with the normal stack and if its a  freezeout is there a chip penalty for missing the blinds?

Any help would be greatly appreciated as we are looking to add thi sto our local game but just want to get all teh facts first.

Cheers

[doubleup]

Can anyone explain to me how the alternates system works or people just running late?
I understand the bit about not adding new tables and just filling in the seats but what happens about the chip stacks?
If someone joins say ten minutes before the end of the rebuy period just he just sit down with the normal stack and if its a  freezeout is there a chip penalty for missing the blinds?

Any help would be greatly appreciated as we are looking to add thi sto our local game but just want to get all teh facts first.

Cheers

An alternate is where a tournament is completely full and the organiser has a waiting list of players (alternates) who can join when someone gets eliminated. 

[Tractor]

Ok but what about joining late, how does that work?

[snoopy1239]

Ok but what about joining late, how does that work?

Well, if they've bought their seat, I guess their chips will be put in play.

[doubleup]

Ok but what about joining late, how does that work?

Well, if they've bought their seat, I guess their chips will be put in play.

There's a difference between arriving late and joining late.

Joining late is where someone arrives at the cardroom and asks if he can join the competition which has already started.  If there is a seat available and the competition is in its early stages (usually 1st 2 levels in a freezeout or in rebuy period in a rebuy), they can enter.  (I should have mentioned that alternates can also just get into the comp at the early stages.)

Normally they should have a small amount deducted from their stack. e.g 3 small blinds per 25 mins of the comp they have missed, to put them in the same position as someone who arrived late (this should also apply to alternates).  These chips are added to the pot at their table one by one in sucessive hands.  One way of getting round this, is to add stacks to tables for late arrivals, so they get blinded normally - but remember to have a random draw for a late arrival as they shouldn't be able to pick their seat (otherwise they would choose the table with most chips).  An alternate on the other hand would go to the first seat that comes available on the elimination of a player.  If the stacks for the possible late joiners aren't needed, they can be removed.


So really its competition full = alternate.  Seats available = late joining.  Probably in smaller competitions the best way to go is that if the draw has taken place and there are seats available at tables then these can go to late joiners, but if a "round number" of players enter i.e. no empty seats then players can only join as alternates.   

One rather nit picking point - you shouldn't really allow someone to be late alternate after the first player has been knocked out.  They could see a maniac lose 10 buyins and storm out and then they try to get the seat at the chipped up table as an alternate.  So your list of alternates has to close once someone is eliminated.

[Nick Peters]

Late entries are allowed through-out the rebuy period or the 1st 2 levels of a freezeout.

1. A player buys in before entries are closed. Goes off to work. Their stack is left on table and only the small and big blind
is posted as they can miss as many hands as they wish. If a table breaks, their stack goes onto a new table, and continues to post small and big blind..until their chips have gone or the player sits down to play.

2. Say a comp starts with 47 runners.  The card-room sets up 5 tables, 2 tens and 3 nines. There are 3 empty seats available.  The comp has been running for 15 mins, a player arrives late who hasn't yet bought in. They are placed in one of the empty seats, forfeiting the current small and big blind. If they are placed in the big blind, they have to post their big blind as well. They get cards and play their hand as normal.

3. Freeze-outs operate the same way. However some card-rooms may calculate reduce yr initial stack depending how late you are.

[RioRodent]

Or you can do it as they do in Vegas and allow Late Reg and Alternates to sit with a full stack.

If no one has been eliminated then Late Reg's are starting with average chips... in the case of Alternates some one will have been eliminated and therefore they will be starting with less than average chips.

And anyone starting after the first blind level is starting with a worse blind structure... eg. 5000 chips & 1st level 25/50 blinds = 100 BBs; start in the 2nd level with 5000 chips & 50/100 blinds = 50 BBs.

[doubleup]

Or you can do it as they do in Vegas and allow Late Reg and Alternates to sit with a full stack.

If no one has been eliminated then Late Reg's are starting with average chips... in the case of Alternates some one will have been eliminated and therefore they will be starting with less than average chips.

And anyone starting after the first blind level is starting with a worse blind structure... eg. 5000 chips & 1st level 25/50 blinds = 100 BBs; start in the 2nd level with 5000 chips & 50/100 blinds = 50 BBs.

Don't think they do this everywhere in Vegas.  The reason chips are deducted is that someone who enters and arrives late will be blinded, so why should someone who enters late be better off?  A TD would much rather ppl who might be pushed for time enter a tournament rather than take a chance by turning up late.  If no chips are deducted then ppl would tend to try to join late. 

Also although both your examples are factually correct, the players are not in the least being disadvantaged in terms of chip equity.

[Tractor]

Ok but what about joining late, how does that work?

Well, if they've bought their seat, I guess their chips will be put in play.

There's a difference between arriving late and joining late.

Joining late is where someone arrives at the cardroom and asks if he can join the competition which has already started.  If there is a seat available and the competition is in its early stages (usually 1st 2 levels in a freezeout or in rebuy period in a rebuy), they can enter.  (I should have mentioned that alternates can also just get into the comp at the early stages.)

Normally they should have a small amount deducted from their stack. e.g 3 small blinds per 25 mins of the comp they have missed, to put them in the same position as someone who arrived late (this should also apply to alternates).  These chips are added to the pot at their table one by one in sucessive hands.  One way of getting round this, is to add stacks to tables for late arrivals, so they get blinded normally - but remember to have a random draw for a late arrival as they shouldn't be able to pick their seat (otherwise they would choose the table with most chips).  An alternate on the other hand would go to the first seat that comes available on the elimination of a player.  If the stacks for the possible late joiners aren't needed, they can be removed.


So really its competition full = alternate.  Seats available = late joining.  Probably in smaller competitions the best way to go is that if the draw has taken place and there are seats available at tables then these can go to late joiners, but if a "round number" of players enter i.e. no empty seats then players can only join as alternates.   

One rather nit picking point - you shouldn't really allow someone to be late alternate after the first player has been knocked out.  They could see a maniac lose 10 buyins and storm out and then they try to get the seat at the chipped up table as an alternate.  So your list of alternates has to close once someone is eliminated.

Cheers for the replies, much appreciated.

[RioRodent]

Or you can do it as they do in Vegas and allow Late Reg and Alternates to sit with a full stack.

If no one has been eliminated then Late Reg's are starting with average chips... in the case of Alternates some one will have been eliminated and therefore they will be starting with less than average chips.

And anyone starting after the first blind level is starting with a worse blind structure... eg. 5000 chips & 1st level 25/50 blinds = 100 BBs; start in the 2nd level with 5000 chips & 50/100 blinds = 50 BBs.

Don't think they do this everywhere in Vegas......

Maybe not everywhere... I have only experienced alternates joining at WSOP, Binions & Venetian. I assumed they would be representative, but I stand corrected if other rooms have different rules.

[bone1986]

It's full stacks for alternates at the MGM and Planet Hollywood.

[doubleup]

Maybe not alternates but late entrants from the wsop rules:

81. Late registrants for any event may incur a chip penalty. Players will lose one round of
blinds/antes dead money into the pot for every 15 minutes late after a tournament has
begun up to a maximum of three (3) rounds of blinds/antes.