Poker Players & Occupations

[GlasgowBandit]

Hi all, quick question and point for some of you to consider.  I know that those of you who are "professional poker players" refer to your occupations as retired, we had a situation today when we had to issue a cancellation letter to two well known poker pros for their car insurance, both players concerned recorded their occupation as retired and the names where recognised by an eagle eyed member of staff - not me

Now the company I work for Esure underwrites the insurance products for Esure, Halifax Car Insurance, Sainsbury's Car Insurance, First Alternative Car Insurance, Sheila’s Wheels Car Insurance and Esure Home Insurance.  Each brand has its own separate underwriting criteria but occupations we won't cover are those related to the gaming profession, sports personalities and TV personalities now it doesn't matter if these roles are only carried out on a part time basis its important that anyone who performs in these roles or has their main source of income from any of these professions declares that to both their home and car insurer - you may well find that many insurers wont cover you in the event of a claim.

Now whether you agree or disagree with the criteria the companies set their is an increased risk with certain occupations and its not inconceivable that a poker player could be targeted for assault or robbery, theft or malicious damage claims after winning a tournament, so that’s the main reason why its excluded by my company. 

Moreover, something that should be considered if your insured by any of above companies and indeed by any insurer is the class of use you have for a poker player they really need to have business use attached to their policy simply because (unless they are internet pros only) they are often to be found travelling to various casinos, so not one permanent place of employment or indeed social use. 

I suggest that if anyone has any concerns about this post they contact their own insurer and be upfront about what they actually do, you may find that they will cancel your policy, they may even consider different terms but better to be safe than sorry with these things than risk not being covered in the event of a claim.

Any questions feel free to ask I'll do my best to answer any I can.

[kinboshi]

How do the insurance companies prove that they are in fact professional poker players?

[GlasgowBandit]

How do the insurance companies prove that they are in fact professional poker players?

Today we used google.  The onus is not on the insurer to prove the occupation, the insured has a duty of disclosure. 

[Dingdell]

How do the insurance companies prove that they are in fact professional poker players?

Today we used google.  The onus is not on the insurer to prove the occupation, the insured has a duty of disclosure. 

I fully understand and agree with the reasons for refusing cover but what is the company's criteria for a professional poker player? Surely someone could be retired but spend their time and pension/income from selling their business playing poker? Surely that doesn't make them professional?

I'm just interested.

[GlasgowBandit]

How do the insurance companies prove that they are in fact professional poker players?

Today we used google.  The onus is not on the insurer to prove the occupation, the insured has a duty of disclosure. 

I fully understand and agree with the reasons for refusing cover but what is the company's criteria for a professional poker player? Surely someone could be retired but spend their time and pension/income from selling their business playing poker? Surely that doesn't make them professional?

I'm just interested.

I would agree with that and its at that point it comes down to discretion of the underwriter, lets just say the players who will receive written notification that their policy is to be cancelled in 7 days time are easily identified as "professional" poker players, if you had to do a search on google for the players concerned they will come up in many poker articles and their are stories about their success on many poker related sites.

My intention here is not to debate the merits of the underwriting criteria because some of it I dont always agree with, I am simply pointing out that anyone on here who would discribe themselves as "pro poker player" but for certains purposes would consider themselves as retired.

I don't doubt that the players concerned felt they where being a 100% honest, in truth apart from the fact they where recognised as poker pros its the sort of business that the comapny wants to attract to our book, they where considered to be clean risk drivers barring one minor conviction.

[GlasgowBandit]

Here is the declarations from the website that all new business customers agree to before setting up their policy.

All drivers including myself do not have any of the following occupations: taxi or minicab driver, proprietor or controller; performer or presenter in films, TV, radio, music or other performing arts; professional sportsperson, manager or coach; non UK armed forces or diplomatic staff; or any occupation connected with gaming, nightclubs, circuses, fairgrounds, amusements, street trading, scrap waste or second hand dealing, fast food delivery

[dazzaster]

Ridiculous.

[neeko]

There is an irony to an insurance co regarding poker as gambling, when the whole insurance industry is based on calculated risks on the life expectancy of individuals, the number of crashes a young/ old/ male/ female driver will have.

I am not sure as to the difference between the calculated value of an annuity and the pot odds of a flush draw. Equitable Life would have done better if they played poker for all their money rather than thinking they could write insurance correctly.

[Dingdell]

Here is the declarations from the website that all new business customers agree to before setting up their policy.

All drivers including myself do not have any of the following occupations: taxi or minicab driver, proprietor or controller; performer or presenter in films, TV, radio, music or other performing arts; professional sportsperson, manager or coach; non UK armed forces or diplomatic staff; or any occupation connected with gaming, nightclubs, circuses, fairgrounds, amusements, street trading, scrap waste or second hand dealing, fast food delivery

But at what point does it become a occupation? Is it when you win more than you wager? In order to make a decision there must be specific criteria otherwise one underwriter will make a different decision to another in the same company.

[GlasgowBandit]

Here is the declarations from the website that all new business customers agree to before setting up their policy.

All drivers including myself do not have any of the following occupations: taxi or minicab driver, proprietor or controller; performer or presenter in films, TV, radio, music or other performing arts; professional sportsperson, manager or coach; non UK armed forces or diplomatic staff; or any occupation connected with gaming, nightclubs, circuses, fairgrounds, amusements, street trading, scrap waste or second hand dealing, fast food delivery

But at what point does it become a occupation? Is it when you win more than you wager? In order to make a decision there must be specific criteria otherwise one underwriter will make a different decision to another in the same company.

Possibly, this could be true.  Underwriting always comes down to opinions, I would say personally that when the main source of income comes from playing poker then this is their occupation.

Some people strike it lucky and win a big event, but would in my opinion not be considered poker professionals by professional if I was making the decision I would say that its anyone who obtains a regular income from playing poker or indeed is a sponsored pro or a regular personality on TV shows related to poker.

For example I would say that the likes of DC, Roland De Wolfe, Hendon Mob where all professional poker players I wouldn't class the regular club player who maybe played once a week and who occasionally splashed out for a big event where professionals.  When making a decision from the insurance perspective we would be looking at many of the online databases and search engines trying to make a balanced decision.

I would say that anyone who holds down a full time job and plays poker as a recreational pursuit would not be considered a professional - not even if they where successful, however the full time occupation may be declinable for other reasons.

[byronkincaid]

can anyone name some insurance companies who are OK insuring pro poker players?

in what circumstances would an insurance company look into whether you have told a porky about your employment? Obv if you cause a motorway pile up that's gonna cost millions or your 100K ferrari gets nicked they would, but normal everyday claims for cheap old bangers?

[GlasgowBandit]

A contract of insurance is a contract of goodwill, the insurance companies expect customers to be honest when answering all the questions, thats why each individual company will have their own criteria, if a customer lies at any stage during the application then IMO they deserve to have their policy terminated and declared null and void.  If there has been a genuine mistake made then I would hope that the insurer would honour any claim.

In regards to what companies will check your occupation, every company should check all details about an insured person before a claim is made by checking out all details provided, sometimes its not possible for this to be done before a claim is made but especially during the claim process regardless of the value of a claim all the details should be and are rigorously checked.

As for insurer who take on poker players and other occupation that could be considered high risk by looking at what Direct Line say then I would suggest they dont have any issues with poker players/gaming professions

Your business or the business of your employer is not in anyway connected with any of the following: the entertainment and fashion industry, professional sports, foreign service, foreign diplomatic personnel, mini-cab drivers or mini-cab controllers.

[Jon MW]

can anyone name some insurance companies who are OK insuring pro poker players?

...

Go onto the online sites make up your contact details, but put in the rest of the details accurately and choose gambler as occupation.

Those who just won't touch poker pro's will decline, those who don't like it will offer high quotes, those who don't place much of a weighting on occupation will give the best quotes.

If these are reasonable then saying you're a poker pro means there's no chance of any problems with these sites and you can go back and put in your correct details.

But also if you note the ones that don't just decline then you might be able to play one off against another, especially if they're trying to grab some extra business with offers like guaranteeing to beat your existing insurer. Insurance is a surprisingly difficult business to make money in so they really don't want to turn away customers if they can possibly help it.

I used to work in an insurance company, but only as a statistician so I didn't really get involved with any of the nitty gritty of actually having to deal with customers, but that would be just about my understanding of the best way to get the best quote.


oh, and

Ridiculous.

you have no idea  just how much so , underwriting is a massive pseudo-science based substantially on intuition and hunches would be my assessment of working with them. From a statistical viewpoint, the majority of underwriting decisions (for car insurance anyway - it's the only statistics I was working with) are highly suspect.

[byronkincaid]

thanks guys

[steeley68]

I guess you are a professional poker player when Party Poker etc refer to you as one, thus meaning the insurance company just quotes their website. It's amazing, the stuff you can find on the interweb.