Tournament Hand of the Week 29th November

[TightEnd]

Pending a more suitable person stepping into the fray to take these over, to tide us over here is a hand from the blondepoker.com Waterford Winter festival this past weekend, a €500 deep-stack with 275 runners


It is hero's second table, and he has 25,000 chips with the blinds at 400-800, average is 22,000 and 220 players remain

Hero has just moved one orbit ago and has only played with one player before, a "name" professional who is worse for wear, who sits three to Hero's right and appears to be the most aggressive player at the table. In Hero's first orbit he raised four times in mid to late position, once calling a short-stack's re-raise shove with  and losing.

Villian has 37,000 and is in a hurry. Hero would like to trap Villian unawares and catch him out. Hero is unknown to table but wearing a moniker that says "TightEnd" probably gives them something to go on 

Hero is in the Big Blind with 

Villian, in between reading an Irish Newspaper, supping Magners and talikng to sycophantic railbirds, as wasted as he will be later, raises to 2,500 in the cut-off having looked at Hero's stack first

Button, and this is the first hand I have seen him play. Young, looks the part, decent table presence thinks and thinks and flat calls. He has 32,000

Small blind folds


and the action is on hero


What is your course of action here? To what extent is it influenced by the behaviour to date of the original raiser? What are you thinking about the flat call on the button? Is it possible at this stage to ascribe ranges to either player?

Hero decides to Call. Is there an argument to re-raise here?

Three players go to the flop with 7,900 in the middle

Flop

    

And the action is on hero

What is your line here?


More to come on Wednesday

[madasahatstand]

What is your course of action here? To what extent is it influenced by the behaviour to date of the original raiser? What are you thinking about the flat call on the button? Is it possible at this stage to ascribe ranges to either player?

Im thinking the initial raise by the villan could be another steal as he has been playing this game all along. the flat call by the button who hasnt played much is concerning to me. He must have something. Maybe a high pocketpair? If not maybe AK?

Hero decides to Call. Is there an argument to re-raise here?

There is no argument from me about re-raising. Its a call. If I reraise, I risk being put all in or being called again and I'm not really in good shape with A 10s.


What is your line here?


My line is to check. Im hoping the villan puts in another bet and scares the button off the flop. Chances are  the button might have a big pair and will call the bet then I get out of the way. If the villan bets and pushes the button off the pot, then I'm raising the villan for a significant amount of chips because I doubt I'll get him off the hand with a bog standard raise. 

[Longy]

I actually might pass this pre, I hate playing oop with hands like this. You just never know where you are post flop being first to act with a marginal holding.

Post flop im really am not sure what is best here without a read on both players post flop. If co c-bet's alot post flop i will prob check it over to him, if they are both passive i might just bet out and see if i can take it down. Im not keen on making a big pot here as our hand is likely to be 2nd best if we get any resistance, so pot control is upper most in my mind.

[madasahatstand]

I actually might pass this pre, I hate playing oop with hands like this. You just never know where you are post flop being first to act with a marginal holding.

I agree

[Graham C]

I'd pass this OOP too, sure I'd like to get all his chips but unless the flop comes ATx it's an awkward position to be in.

OK called, first to act, I'd check to him to see what he does.  I may call the bet depending on how much is put in the pot.  I'm more than likely not calling more than a few thousand here.

[madasahatstand]

Re: Tournament Hand of the Week 29th November


Tighty, Its not the 29th of November by the way:)

[LuckyLloyd]

Folding>Raising>>>>>>>>>>>Calling. As10s plays bad in multiway pots when you are out of position. You only have 30 BBs behind and by calling here you are only creating a perfect situation for you to make a big mistake postflop. I would much prefer squeezing here to like 6500 - 7k with the intention of calling the drunk aul lad and folding to the younger player. But that is more marginal and you just cannot go wrong with folding here.

As played, the first thing you do is check.

[snoopy1239]

I prefer to fold pre-flop. You've hit your flop, but you still don't know where you stand or what to do. That speaks volumes to me. As Lloyd said, it's raise or fold for me to avoid the potential felting on the flop.

[AlexMartin]

I play as hero. Lead flop with decent bet.

[LuckyLloyd]

Why are you leading? Why do you want all worse hands to fold and give all better hands the chance to stack you? Do you not want them to bluff? Do you not want them to think that a second best one pair hand is leading? Do you not realize that a better hand than TPTK is never folding to you when you call pre and bet the pot on this board?

WHY WOULD YOU LEAD?

[AlexMartin]

Why are you leading? Why do you want all worse hands to fold and give all better hands the chance to stack you? Do you not want them to bluff? Do you not want them to think that a second best one pair hand is leading? Do you not realize that a better hand than TPTK is never folding to you when you call pre and bet the pot on this board?

WHY WOULD YOU LEAD?

We have a marginal hand. We do not have a hand we want to play for stacks with. If we play the hand as you suggest we create an inflated pot with a weak hand in which we are pot-commited, as a check raise will have to be a substantial portion of our stack. Then we get into the realm of tournament life on the line. Chip accumulation goes hand in hand with survival. Our hand has little chance to improve and a big chance for the board to get scary. Taking this small pot down now by posing a question to the original raiser comforms to my personal preference of small-ball poker. Each to their own.

This is totally different to a cash game.

[LuckyLloyd]

Why are you leading? Why do you want all worse hands to fold and give all better hands the chance to stack you? Do you not want them to bluff? Do you not want them to think that a second best one pair hand is leading? Do you not realize that a better hand than TPTK is never folding to you when you call pre and bet the pot on this board?

WHY WOULD YOU LEAD?

We have a marginal hand. We do not have a hand we want to play for stacks with. If we play the hand as you suggest we create an inflated pot with a weak hand in which we are pot-commited, as a check raise will have to be a substantial portion of our stack. Then we get into the realm of tournament life on the line. Chip accumulation goes hand in hand with survival. Our hand has little chance to improve and a big chance for the board to get scary. Taking this small pot down now by posing a question to the original raiser comforms to my personal preference of small-ball poker. Each to their own.

This is totally different to a cash game.

There is 8k in the middle and you have 22k behind. You lead out for 6k here and get called or raised the pot will now be bigger than your stack (8 + 12 = 20k // 16k behind). Plus, if you lead out here and get called or raised you will be in terrible shape against the range of the opponent who is continuing with the hand. Leading here weakens your position as it commits you to the pot (not help to avoid this as you mistakenly believe); narrows the range of your opponents; increases the possibillity that you make a mistake for the rest of your chips; decreases their chances of making a mistake and makes their decisions much, much easier.

The hero has identified the "pro" villian as aggressive. With 8k out there it is reasonable to believe that he will bet most of his preflop raising range when you check to him. And if he or the button bets we want them to be doing it with as wide a range of hands as possible. If you lead here and get raised you will need to stab yourself in the eyeball. If you lead here and get called you will need to stab yourself in the eyeball on the majority of turncards.

If YOU lead here then it is YOU who is inflating the pot with a marginal hand and commiting yourself to the pot. This is different to a cashgame yes in that we are shallow stacked and can't afford to make a single incorrect decision from this point on because we can't reload if we spew off our chips.

When you lead here do you want to call when you get raised all - in? You'll have to because of the price you have laid yourself but you won't be winning often. Or will you want to fold because your tournament life is on the line? Well then you can pat yourself on the back and congratulate yourself for choosing the worst line available.

Cashgame or tournament, with these stacks checking is much, much better. Then re - evaluating depending on who bets; for how much; and what the turn is if checked through. And this isn't a question of styles; or "each to their own". And if you wish to talk about smallball poker - then don't ever lead here as it achieves the exact opposite of what smallball is supposed to.

AND FINALLY - this flop spot is the perfect example of why folding or raising preflop is definitely better than calling like the hero elected to do.

[boldie]

fold preflop for me..not playing the hand after that.

[AlexMartin]

Alex[/url] Martin link=topic=29039.msg594653#msg594653 date=1195541047]

Why are you leading? Why do you want all worse hands to fold and give all better hands the chance to stack you? Do you not want them to bluff? Do you not want them to think that a second best one pair hand is leading? Do you not realize that a better hand than TPTK is never folding to you when you call pre and bet the pot on this board?

WHY WOULD YOU LEAD?

We have a marginal hand. We do not have a hand we want to play for stacks with. If we play the hand as you suggest we create an inflated pot with a weak hand in which we are pot-commited, as a check raise will have to be a substantial portion of our stack. Then we get into the realm of tournament life on the line. Chip accumulation goes hand in hand with survival. Our hand has little chance to improve and a big chance for the board to get scary. Taking this small pot down now by posing a question to the original raiser comforms to my personal preference of small-ball poker. Each to their own.

This is totally different to a cash game.

There is 8k in the middle and you have 22k behind. You lead out for 6k here and get called or raised the pot will now be bigger than your stack (8 + 12 = 20k // 16k behind). Plus, if you lead out here and get called or raised you will be in terrible shape against the range of the opponent who is continuing with the hand. Leading here weakens your position as it commits you to the pot (not help to avoid this as you mistakenly believe); narrows the range of your opponents; increases the possibillity that you make a mistake for the rest of your chips; decreases their chances of making a mistake and makes their decisions much, much easier.

The hero has identified the "pro" villian as aggressive. With 8k out there it is reasonable to believe that he will bet most of his preflop raising range when you check to him. And if he or the button bets we want them to be doing it with as wide a range of hands as possible. If you lead here and get raised you will need to stab yourself in the eyeball. If you lead here and get called you will need to stab yourself in the eyeball on the majority of turncards.

If YOU lead here then it is YOU who is inflating the pot with a marginal hand and commiting yourself to the pot. This is different to a cashgame yes in that we are shallow stacked and can't afford to make a single incorrect decision from this point on because we can't reload if we spew off our chips.

When you lead here do you want to call when you get raised all - in? You'll have to because of the price you have laid yourself but you won't be winning often. Or will you want to fold because your tournament life is on the line? Well then you can pat yourself on the back and congratulate yourself for choosing the worst line available.

Cashgame or tournament, with these stacks checking is much, much better. Then re - evaluating depending on who bets; for how much; and what the turn is if checked through. And this isn't a question of styles; or "each to their own". And if you wish to talk about smallball poker - then don't ever lead here as it achieves the exact opposite of what smallball is supposed to.

AND FINALLY - this flop spot is the perfect example of why folding or raising preflop is definitely better than calling like the hero elected to do.

1st of all  and nice response. I like a nice debate. I didnt pay enough attention to hero's stack size in the beginning but have had a gd look now.

I originally thought that you were advocating a large check raise in this spot which i hate. I stand by leading if you are going to play at all.  I think leading here for 5k into 8k gets the best possible information about villains hand for the least amount of chips and doesnt compound and errors we make on later streets. It lets us take control of the pot and does definitely not mean we are commited. A check-raise in this spot is one of my pet hates in tournament poker, playing a guessing game with no solid information.

[TightEnd]

Part Two


Appreciate the points about folding pre-flop but Hero is now in this mess and proceeding accordingly 

Hero checks, expecting Pro to take the lead/possibly bluff and intending to check call to control pot size. Check raise never entered his thinking

Intending to re-evaluate on turn

Pro Insta bets 5,000 into the 7,900 pot and this is quickly flat called by the button, confidently

The Pot is now 17,900 and Hero has 22,500. He calls the 5,000.

Three players go to the turn with 22,900 in the pot

Remaining Stack Sizes

Hero 17,500
Drunk Pro 29,500
Button 24,500

Onto the turn

it comes

   

giving Hero top two pair

At this point Hero gets a read (of sorts) from Button, who sits bolt upright and looks at his chips


With the action on Hero, what is your course of action now?  Do you lead out? Move all-in? Or check intending to check raise or check call? Please explain your thinking behind your preferred move



As played (badly he now feels) Hero checks intending to check raise all-in, confident that one of the other two spots will bet for him

Hero Checks

Pro bets 14,000

Button moves instantly all-in, barely suppressing a grin

Its back to hero, and a monster pot

Can Hero possibly find a fold here? Should he?

The pot is a monstrous 60,900.


What are we putting both the other players on? Do we feel we are ahead?


Reveal on Friday