AA deep and oop

[LuckyLloyd]

And I do both of the above with all of 1010 - AA // AQs - AKo

I have been playing a lot of full ring this month and nobody I've got pegged as a big winner 3 bets that much. When I started I thought these people are all nits let's 3 bet loads but you can't really have a 3 bet range that is wider than many of your opponents raising range. You just get trapped all the time.

Well, ok, we can narrow our range to JJ+ and AKo+ for online full ring. Who plays full ring these days anyway?? 


Six max what I have listed above would be my standard range. It would also be my range in most live tournament situations and in live 1 / 2 cash.

[byronkincaid]

Who plays full ring these days anyway?? 

bunch of old nits like me 

[Longy]

Good posts from Lloyd.

The 1st instance flat calling looks suicidal with the pot going multiway preflop and therefore difficult to play postflop. Therefore pump up and making it chunky (for value) as Lloyd says i would be doing this with a range that will vary between jj+ ak and 88+ aq+ depending on the table, hell if i think my fold equity is big enough here i might do it occasionally with random cards. I do play 6 max though and with the lower end of the range you just fold out everything but the hands that beat you at full ring.

The 2nd hand flat calling occasionally as a mix up looks ok, though i hardly ever do it. I often flat call 3 bets with aa/kk.

[Smart Money]

AA OOP: My first objective is to not lose a big pot.

Hand 1: Massive re-raise for me. I'd probably raise it right up to $75. Even raising up to $55 is giving good implied odds to the $1.1k stack who has a PP here.

Hand 2: I'm happy to flat call here sometimes- and raise his flop bet or even turn bet if you think he'll fire again. Alternatively re-raise but control the pot size, e.g. bet flop, c/c turn, bet (or c/c) river.

Never be disappointed to win small pots with AA

[LuckyLloyd]

AA OOP: My first objective is to not lose a big pot.

Hand 1: Massive re-raise for me. I'd probably raise it right up to $75. Even raising up to $55 is giving good implied odds to the $1.1k stack who has a PP here.

Hand 2: I'm happy to flat call here sometimes- and raise his flop bet or even turn bet if you think he'll fire again. Alternatively re-raise but control the pot size, e.g. bet flop, c/c turn, bet (or c/c) river.

Never be disappointed to win small pots with AA

WRONG.

- With what hands does your objective become to win a big pot?

1) Making it $75 gives him better implied odds if he holds a pocket pair ducy? Because you now can be put on exactly AA and the bigger pot is going to be harder for you to get away from postflop;

2) Ya, the concepts of 3 betting preflop and value betting postflop are WAAAAAAAAY overrated;

 

[AlexMartin]

Why do we have to let him know we are serious!!!!??? WE HAVE AA!! Do you want to type "AA" in the fucking chat box so he knows EXACTLY what you have?? Do you not want him to believe that a weaker hand is best and pay you off?? If he has a weaker onepair hand or flops a draw or something do we not want him to stay in and chase while providing incorrect odds??

You need to think hard about your mentallity to the game. You win money by decieving your opponents and getting them to stack off with weaker holdings. Not by "defining your hand"; and "getting him off his draw"; or "betting to see where you're at".

am i right in thinking you're in this to the end regardless because you've got AA ?

NO!! That's not what I'm saying at all!! But I specifically want to play in such a way that makes it difficult for us to be put on AA at any given time. As such, we need to be wary of protecting our range and playing a number of hands in the same fashion so that we are hard to read and put our opponents to difficult decisions and get paid off when we are strong.

Saying that we should put out a big bet on every flop "to let him / them know we are serious" is ridiculous and is indicative of a thought process which is seriously flawed. Because, there are some very, very ugly flops that may come down which force us to turn AA into a bluff catcher. So we should never think that we are going to auto bet every single flop for 2 / 3's of the pot and our motivation for every decision we make should be to maximise our EV.

Remember:

- You should bet for value because you think weaker hands will call (this includes drawing hands which we want in but at the wrong price);
- You should bet for value if you think that you can get stronger hands to fold;

YOU SHOULD NEVER BET:

- For information;- To define our hand;
- Because we are scared and want to make it impossible for any draw to continue and "win a small pot rather than lose a big one";

Really? Thats a mighty big swipe to take.

[LuckyLloyd]

Why do we have to let him know we are serious!!!!??? WE HAVE AA!! Do you want to type "AA" in the fucking chat box so he knows EXACTLY what you have?? Do you not want him to believe that a weaker hand is best and pay you off?? If he has a weaker onepair hand or flops a draw or something do we not want him to stay in and chase while providing incorrect odds??

You need to think hard about your mentallity to the game. You win money by decieving your opponents and getting them to stack off with weaker holdings. Not by "defining your hand"; and "getting him off his draw"; or "betting to see where you're at".

am i right in thinking you're in this to the end regardless because you've got AA ?

NO!! That's not what I'm saying at all!! But I specifically want to play in such a way that makes it difficult for us to be put on AA at any given time. As such, we need to be wary of protecting our range and playing a number of hands in the same fashion so that we are hard to read and put our opponents to difficult decisions and get paid off when we are strong.

Saying that we should put out a big bet on every flop "to let him / them know we are serious" is ridiculous and is indicative of a thought process which is seriously flawed. Because, there are some very, very ugly flops that may come down which force us to turn AA into a bluff catcher. So we should never think that we are going to auto bet every single flop for 2 / 3's of the pot and our motivation for every decision we make should be to maximise our EV.

Remember:

- You should bet for value because you think weaker hands will call (this includes drawing hands which we want in but at the wrong price);
- You should bet for value if you think that you can get stronger hands to fold;

YOU SHOULD NEVER BET:

- For information;- To define our hand;
- Because we are scared and want to make it impossible for any draw to continue and "win a small pot rather than lose a big one";

Really? Thats a mighty big swipe to take.

You should never solely bet for information or "to see where you are" ever. It's a really fundamental point.

[snoopy1239]

I've had two situations in my last couple of sessions where I've been dealt AA in the blinds when very deep stacked, and am facing a raise - and it's left me a bit unsure of what to do. What's your thought process in these spots - what's the primary aim, to maybe win a big pot, or to control pot size? Do you reraise, and if so how much? Or just flat call and hopefully play a smaller pot deceptively?

Both 1/2 nl, 9-handed.

1st occasion I'm in the blinds with about $550. There's been a limp, a raise to $11 from a $380 stack who's playing something like 30/10. Monster stack (about $1100) has flat called the $11. He's uber tag, playing about 10/5.

2nd occasion is simpler - I've got about $380, there's a raise to $6 from a similar stack playing about 28/8.

What do you do and why?

(No bad beats to tell here, by the way...)

My views are probably a little skewed because I rarely play full table, but when I used to play 6-handed cash on a regular basis, my goal was always to trap someone who had an overpair smaller than mine, or, if I'm lucky, a hand like A-K or A-Q that has made top pair. Any other hands will either result in your Aces being outdrawn for a big loss, or them folding a weak hand post-flop and leaving you with a paltry pot.

My goal is to win a big pot, but also avoid losing a big one if my opponents are willing to raise pre-flop with unusual holdings. If that is the case, then I'll simply re-raise, but if I know the table to be relatively solid and just raising with expected hands, then I'll smooth call to disguise my hand. It's a risk, so I will only make the play if the pre-flop raise isn't small and that I'm sure there will only be the two of us in the pot.

This is a strategy that seemed to work for me, mainly because they couldn't put me on Aces and so tended to ship it if they did indeed have the overpair or made that top pair with something like A-K. If I re-raised pre-flop, then they'd put me on the overpair and be able to trap me or get away cheaply from a hand like Queens. I don't like telegraphing my hand if it can be helped, but sometimes you have no choice and simply have to re-raise, which I imagine you'd have to do more regularly on a full ring table due to the increased chances of being called behind. Alternatively, if you raise and are re-raised, then I'd fancy a flat call.

I'm probably in the minority here, but that was my approach.

[LuckyLloyd]

I've had two situations in my last couple of sessions where I've been dealt AA in the blinds when very deep stacked, and am facing a raise - and it's left me a bit unsure of what to do. What's your thought process in these spots - what's the primary aim, to maybe win a big pot, or to control pot size? Do you reraise, and if so how much? Or just flat call and hopefully play a smaller pot deceptively?

Both 1/2 nl, 9-handed.

1st occasion I'm in the blinds with about $550. There's been a limp, a raise to $11 from a $380 stack who's playing something like 30/10. Monster stack (about $1100) has flat called the $11. He's uber tag, playing about 10/5.

2nd occasion is simpler - I've got about $380, there's a raise to $6 from a similar stack playing about 28/8.

What do you do and why?

(No bad beats to tell here, by the way...)

My views are probably a little skewed because I rarely play full table, but when I used to play 6-handed cash on a regular basis, my goal was always to trap someone who had an overpair smaller than mine, or, if I'm lucky, a hand like A-K or A-Q that has made top pair. Any other hands will either result in your Aces being outdrawn for a big loss, or them folding a weak hand post-flop and leaving you with a paltry pot.

My goal is to win a big pot, but also avoid losing a big one if my opponents are willing to raise pre-flop with unusual holdings. If that is the case, then I'll simply re-raise, but if I know the table to be relatively solid and just raising with expected hands, then I'll smooth call to disguise my hand. It's a risk, so I will only make the play if the pre-flop raise isn't small and that I'm sure there will only be the two of us in the pot.

This is a strategy that seemed to work for me, mainly because they couldn't put me on Aces and so tended to ship it if they did indeed have the overpair or made that top pair with something like A-K. If I re-raised pre-flop, then they'd put me on the overpair and be able to trap me or get away cheaply from a hand like Queens. I don't like telegraphing my hand if it can be helped, but sometimes you have no choice and simply have to re-raise, which I imagine you'd have to do more regularly on a full ring table due to the increased chances of being called behind. Alternatively, if you raise and are re-raised, then I'd fancy a flat call.

I'm probably in the minority here, but that was my approach.

So, like, did you ever 3 bet ever? If you were to 3 bet - what you 3 bet with? The above sounds sooo exploitable and transparent.

[snoopy1239]

I've had two situations in my last couple of sessions where I've been dealt AA in the blinds when very deep stacked, and am facing a raise - and it's left me a bit unsure of what to do. What's your thought process in these spots - what's the primary aim, to maybe win a big pot, or to control pot size? Do you reraise, and if so how much? Or just flat call and hopefully play a smaller pot deceptively?

Both 1/2 nl, 9-handed.

1st occasion I'm in the blinds with about $550. There's been a limp, a raise to $11 from a $380 stack who's playing something like 30/10. Monster stack (about $1100) has flat called the $11. He's uber tag, playing about 10/5.

2nd occasion is simpler - I've got about $380, there's a raise to $6 from a similar stack playing about 28/8.

What do you do and why?

(No bad beats to tell here, by the way...)

My views are probably a little skewed because I rarely play full table, but when I used to play 6-handed cash on a regular basis, my goal was always to trap someone who had an overpair smaller than mine, or, if I'm lucky, a hand like A-K or A-Q that has made top pair. Any other hands will either result in your Aces being outdrawn for a big loss, or them folding a weak hand post-flop and leaving you with a paltry pot.

My goal is to win a big pot, but also avoid losing a big one if my opponents are willing to raise pre-flop with unusual holdings. If that is the case, then I'll simply re-raise, but if I know the table to be relatively solid and just raising with expected hands, then I'll smooth call to disguise my hand. It's a risk, so I will only make the play if the pre-flop raise isn't small and that I'm sure there will only be the two of us in the pot.

This is a strategy that seemed to work for me, mainly because they couldn't put me on Aces and so tended to ship it if they did indeed have the overpair or made that top pair with something like A-K. If I re-raised pre-flop, then they'd put me on the overpair and be able to trap me or get away cheaply from a hand like Queens. I don't like telegraphing my hand if it can be helped, but sometimes you have no choice and simply have to re-raise, which I imagine you'd have to do more regularly on a full ring table due to the increased chances of being called behind. Alternatively, if you raise and are re-raised, then I'd fancy a flat call.

I'm probably in the minority here, but that was my approach.

So, like, did you ever 3 bet ever? If you were to 3 bet - what you 3 bet with? The above sounds sooo exploitable and transparent.

In truth, I didn't need to 3-bet too often, mainly in multi-way pots where I wanted to narrow the field. I think these situations are very much dependent on your opponents. It may sound exploitable and transparent to you, but then again, I wasn't playing you, and I'd make sure that my opponents weren't the type of players who would see through the transparency and exploit the situation. I guess that's why table selection is important. The approach worked for me, so I kept with it - players would often ship it in unhesitantly with just top pair (inc overpair) if I disguised my hand and flat-called, yet play cautiously if I re-raised. Again, this is 6-handed rather than full table. You also have to remember that if you don't re-raise with the range you suggested earlier (ie. perhaps smooth call with some of those hands instead), then when you do re-raise, you telegraph your hand even more.

Having said that, I see nothing wrong with the advice Lloyd has offered thus far.

[byronkincaid]

Alex[/url] Martin link=topic=29085.msg595412#msg595412 date=1195668828]

Why do we have to let him know we are serious!!!!??? WE HAVE AA!! Do you want to type "AA" in the fucking chat box so he knows EXACTLY what you have?? Do you not want him to believe that a weaker hand is best and pay you off?? If he has a weaker onepair hand or flops a draw or something do we not want him to stay in and chase while providing incorrect odds??

You need to think hard about your mentallity to the game. You win money by decieving your opponents and getting them to stack off with weaker holdings. Not by "defining your hand"; and "getting him off his draw"; or "betting to see where you're at".

am i right in thinking you're in this to the end regardless because you've got AA ?

NO!! That's not what I'm saying at all!! But I specifically want to play in such a way that makes it difficult for us to be put on AA at any given time. As such, we need to be wary of protecting our range and playing a number of hands in the same fashion so that we are hard to read and put our opponents to difficult decisions and get paid off when we are strong.

Saying that we should put out a big bet on every flop "to let him / them know we are serious" is ridiculous and is indicative of a thought process which is seriously flawed. Because, there are some very, very ugly flops that may come down which force us to turn AA into a bluff catcher. So we should never think that we are going to auto bet every single flop for 2 / 3's of the pot and our motivation for every decision we make should be to maximise our EV.

Remember:

- You should bet for value because you think weaker hands will call (this includes drawing hands which we want in but at the wrong price);
- You should bet for value if you think that you can get stronger hands to fold;

YOU SHOULD NEVER BET:

- For information;- To define our hand;
- Because we are scared and want to make it impossible for any draw to continue and "win a small pot rather than lose a big one";

Really? Thats a mighty big swipe to take.

You should never solely bet for information or "to see where you are" ever. It's a really fundamental point.

But on almost every poker show I watch on TV the commentators tell us the players should do precisely that

[LuckyLloyd]

I've had two situations in my last couple of sessions where I've been dealt AA in the blinds when very deep stacked, and am facing a raise - and it's left me a bit unsure of what to do. What's your thought process in these spots - what's the primary aim, to maybe win a big pot, or to control pot size? Do you reraise, and if so how much? Or just flat call and hopefully play a smaller pot deceptively?

Both 1/2 nl, 9-handed.

1st occasion I'm in the blinds with about $550. There's been a limp, a raise to $11 from a $380 stack who's playing something like 30/10. Monster stack (about $1100) has flat called the $11. He's uber tag, playing about 10/5.

2nd occasion is simpler - I've got about $380, there's a raise to $6 from a similar stack playing about 28/8.

What do you do and why?

(No bad beats to tell here, by the way...)

My views are probably a little skewed because I rarely play full table, but when I used to play 6-handed cash on a regular basis, my goal was always to trap someone who had an overpair smaller than mine, or, if I'm lucky, a hand like A-K or A-Q that has made top pair. Any other hands will either result in your Aces being outdrawn for a big loss, or them folding a weak hand post-flop and leaving you with a paltry pot.

My goal is to win a big pot, but also avoid losing a big one if my opponents are willing to raise pre-flop with unusual holdings. If that is the case, then I'll simply re-raise, but if I know the table to be relatively solid and just raising with expected hands, then I'll smooth call to disguise my hand. It's a risk, so I will only make the play if the pre-flop raise isn't small and that I'm sure there will only be the two of us in the pot.

This is a strategy that seemed to work for me, mainly because they couldn't put me on Aces and so tended to ship it if they did indeed have the overpair or made that top pair with something like A-K. If I re-raised pre-flop, then they'd put me on the overpair and be able to trap me or get away cheaply from a hand like Queens. I don't like telegraphing my hand if it can be helped, but sometimes you have no choice and simply have to re-raise, which I imagine you'd have to do more regularly on a full ring table due to the increased chances of being called behind. Alternatively, if you raise and are re-raised, then I'd fancy a flat call.

I'm probably in the minority here, but that was my approach.

So, like, did you ever 3 bet ever? If you were to 3 bet - what you 3 bet with? The above sounds sooo exploitable and transparent.

In truth, I didn't need to 3-bet too often, mainly in multi-way pots where I wanted to narrow the field. I think these situations are very much dependent on your opponents. It may sound exploitable and transparent to you, but then again, I wasn't playing you, and I'd make sure that my opponents weren't the type of players who would see through the transparency and exploit the situation. I guess that's why table selection is important. The approach worked for me, so I kept with it - players would often ship it in unhesitantly with just top pair (inc overpair) if I disguised my hand and flat-called, yet play cautiously if I re-raised. Again, this is 6-handed rather than full table. You also have to remember that if you don't re-raise with the range you suggested earlier (ie. perhaps smooth call with some of those hands instead), then when you do re-raise, you telegraph your hand even more.

Having said that, I see nothing wrong with the advice Lloyd has offered thus far.

Well yeah, lol, if you flatcall most of your range in most situations preflop it will have the same effect as three betting 88+ and AJs for similiar amounts againt most opens preflop. In both cases you will be playing a varying range of hands in terms of strength in a similiar fashion thus making it harder for your opposition to prigeon hole and narrow your range, because you are showing up with a lot of different stuff postflop on the basis of the same actions pre.

That said, such thinking goes against the grain. The edge of a good player is going to be better at 6 - max when you are playing re - raised pots against inferior opposition because you will be able to put them to tougher decisions and can figure to make less mistakes in pressure spots than they will. Therefore, the bigger the average potsize you play the bigger your hourly rate should be - assuming you are a winning player and play a large enough sample size to compensate for variance.

[LuckyLloyd]

But on almost every poker show I watch on TV the commentators tell us the players should do precisely that

HINT: Most people who commentate on poker regularly aren't particularly good at poker. Gabe Kaplan being the exception that proves the rule. He's seriously good.

[snoopy1239]

But on almost every poker show I watch on TV the commentators tell us the players should do precisely that

HINT: Most people who commentate on poker regularly aren't particularly good at poker.

Not true. What about Colin Murray?

[Graham C]

and Phil Tuffnell!

FFS Lloyd, thought you knew your stuff