Tournament hand. Good isolation or idiocy?

[Tragic]

I have been getting criticized alot (mainly live) but also online for some of my isolate the dead money plays recently. This one online sent quite a few off on one so just to check my logic which i'm pretty stubbornly backing i'll see what you guys think.

We are mid-way through a £20 freeze on Crypto and I have a 3k stack and K8o in the SB, blinds are 50/100 i am around average 35ish players left 10 paid. It is folded round to the button who has a 500 stack, has been aggressive and is clearly on tilt at the world. He shoves for his 500.

Key point at this stage is i actually rate my chances of being ahead of the shortstack as 60%+. He is definitely the kind of player who will push ATC in this position. I call the 500. The BB now calls the remaining 400 (he has a 3k stack and has been a little fishy but not too out of line). Pot is 1500 and the flop comes .

So i've decided i'm probably ahead of the shorty pre, the Bigstack has now flat called, and i am almost certainly behind to his hand. However his hand is almost as certainly not massive, flat calling AA or KK here is pretty pointless as most players views on betting into a dry side pot on the flop are don't both without a monster. His most likely holding here is two high cards, and the bet into this side pot helps add to the perceived strength of my hand. At this stage I am more concerned about accumulating chips rather than making sure a player is eliminated. Therefore I bet 800. The BB folds.

The Button flips Q9o (I was ahead pre!) And i am drawing to a K which duly arrives on the river. All hell breaks loose...What do you think the vehemence of the reaction almost makes me question myself...

[Longy]

I don't like it, if you are going to bet any flop. Why not shove pre and isolate the button that way. Betting at dry side pot very rarely makes sense, you only get looked up when your behind and when you do "isolate" either the button had you pre or has caught up. Just shove pre or fold pre imo.

[LuckyLloyd]

I think shoving pre is better than what you did - deciding to call. You are just inviting someone in behind. If you shove you will get called by QQ+ // AK+. They won't wake up on those hands a lot.

The flop bet is meh. You've now put in half your stack, and the 800 bet still forces you to go to showdown. You can check back flop, turn and river here and you never get bluffed - if the guy in the blinds bets into you at any point he will have top pair +. And if you take that line you will win the pot as often as you do when you make this 800 bet.

However, some points:

- Ignore people in chat. People are bad at poker;
- If you can't ignore chat, play with chat off;
- People will get on their highorse about these types of situations more than anything else. This is because they heard once that you should check it down as the objective is to "eliminate people from the tournament";

Not the best play in the world. But you had a thought process. Thought processes can be stripped down and fixed up. So ignore the coaching of the villain's in a £20 FO as by virtue of just thinking through what you are doing - you're already better than most of them.

[boldie]

I think shoving pre is better than what you did - deciding to call. You are just inviting someone in behind. If you shove you will get called by QQ+ // AK+. They won't wake up on those hands a lot.

The flop bet is meh. You've now put in half your stack, and the 800 bet still forces you to go to showdown. You can check back flop, turn and river here and you never get bluffed - if the guy in the blinds bets into you at any point he will have top pair +. And if you take that line you will win the pot as often as you do when you make this 800 bet.

However, some points:

- Ignore people in chat. People are bad at poker;
- If you can't ignore chat, play with chat off;
- People will get on their highorse about these types of situations more than anything else. This is because they heard once that you should check it down as the objective is to "eliminate people from the tournament";

Not the best play in the world. But you had a thought process. Thought processes can be stripped down and fixed up. So ignore the coaching of the villain's in a £20 FO as by virtue of just thinking through what you are doing - you're already better than most of them.

I' agree with that. the betting on the flop as opposed to just moving all in pre-flop is not good. Just isolate the shortstack but do it preflop,

[Tragic]

The only thing I would say is, AA and KK will reraise you all in preflop, if you shove you are dead. Hands like AQ will call then fold to the flop bet, if they miss, so i'm not risking my stack to isolate someone with 500 chips. I would not be betting out on an A flop btw.

[Longy]

The only thing I would say is, AA and KK will reraise you all in preflop, if you shove you are dead. Hands like AQ will call then fold to the flop bet, if they miss, so i'm not risking my stack to isolate someone with 500 chips. I would not be betting out on an A flop btw.

Depends on your opponent is sb here i will often flat the raise with aa-qq looking to get action from bb. Whereas i would iso raise myself with hands like aq

[Tragic]

I'm SB!

[LuckyLloyd]

The only thing I would say is, AA and KK will reraise you all in preflop, if you shove you are dead. Hands like AQ will call then fold to the flop bet, if they miss, so i'm not risking my stack to isolate someone with 500 chips. I would not be betting out on an A flop btw.

What isolation raise do you propose to make then that will allow us to fold for the rest of our stack even if we know the blinds shove in behind with QQ+ // AKo+ (and it isn't tighter than that btw)?

[Longy]

I'm SB!

Lol ok, I refer back to the original advice shove or fold pre then.

[Tragic]

That's the thing I would never iso raise here, the BB will reveal himself if he has a monster by iso shoving. So I call the 500, which I can get away from. When the BB flat calls, we can be almost sure his hand is not AA KK QQ AK, as he is aware it is unlikely i will bluff post flop into the side pot. Therefore he has some marginal semi strong hand most likely, which I can "bluff" on any raggy flop as he won't be thinking like I am and will assume I'm not bluffing into a dry side pot. Thus I isolate the shortstack without risking my entire stack, I mean what hand does he flat call with preflop that connects with that flop? Sure there are a couple but more often than not I'm giving myself a great shot at HU for 1500 vs a weak hand. If I check it down I lost to the BBs A high alot of the time.

[LuckyLloyd]

That's the thing I would never iso raise here, the BB will reveal himself if he has a monster by iso shoving. So I call the 500, which I can get away from. When the BB flat calls, we can be almost sure his hand is not AA KK QQ AK, as he is aware it is unlikely i will bluff post flop into the side pot. Therefore he has some marginal semi strong hand most likely, which I can "bluff" on any raggy flop as he won't be thinking like I am and will assume I'm not bluffing into a dry side pot. Thus I isolate the shortstack without risking my entire stack, I mean what hand does he flat call with preflop that connects with that flop? Sure there are a couple but more often than not I'm giving myself a great shot at HU for 1500 vs a weak hand. If I check it down I lost to the BBs A high alot of the time.

Your hand is too weak to be putting one sixth of your stack in to play a flop. If they have Ace high they fold pre which is good for you. If they flop a pair they rarely fold postlfop because this is a £20 MTT and there will already be 1500 in the middle. Don't be worrying about QQ+ // AK. It's unlikely they have it.

[TheChipPrince]

The pre-flop call gets you into all sorts of trouble, a call with K8 is a pure guess, but its opponent dependant, although i'd find it very difficult to part with 17% of my stack... Anyway (as youve played it), once the BB calls, i'm losing all interest unless i hit the flop hard, i see no point in leading out for 800 after hitting no pair/no draw, I cant justify it... Fold to any bet the BB makes and move on...

[Tragic]

Alot of players (in a 20 f/o) will happily call off with AJ AT here that's the thing, but there's such an issue attached in poker to betting in to dry side pots you can use it to your advantage imo! Let me give you an alternative example of isolation play that got criticized. Cash game at DTD. I believe the unlucky party was someone who posts here and limps utg+1. A guy who has just sat down raises after another call behind to £15 and im next to act with AQs, i flat call, as do the next 6 players back to the initial limper who shoves for £50. One fold and the initial raiser calls the £50...Calls...in a live cash game full of fish...inviting a multi way pot? AA I think not...So i Jam for £200 with AQs everyone else folds including the raise/caller and take the pot from what I was told was AK. "I can't believe you went for 200 on AQ", well no I call £30 and isolated over £170 dead money surely? Maybe I'm reading too much slotboom but 1500 chips or £170 for free when all i hav eto do is make a bet that is perceived as stronger than usual!