Value bet the river?

[RichEO]

Game #4612188363: Hold'em NL ($1/$2) - 2007/12/14 - 22:34:57 (UK)
Table "TaosTaos" Seat 7 is the button.
Seat 1: RichEO ($271.05 in chips)
Seat 2: thesparw ($174.55 in chips)
Seat 3: Charlieam ($255.40 in chips)
Seat 4: andvede ($198.90 in chips)
Seat 5: korpimies ($82 in chips)
Seat 6: 88lovg88r ($92 in chips)
Seat 7: Triptee ($200.60 in chips)
Seat 8: Wpllmn ($64.92 in chips)
Seat 9: sayenda ($176.30 in chips)
Seat 10: Tivoli3 ($105 in chips)
Wpllmn: posts small blind $1
sayenda: posts big blind $2

----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to RichEO [ ]
Tivoli3: folds
RichEO: raises to $6
thesparw: calls $6
Charlieam: folds
andvede: folds
korpimies: folds
88lovg88r: folds
Triptee: calls $6
Wpllmn: calls $5
sayenda: calls $4

----- FLOP ----- [ ]
Wpllmn: checks
sayenda: checks
RichEO: bets $15
thesparw: folds
Triptee: folds
Wpllmn: folds
sayenda: calls $15

----- TURN ----- [ ][]
sayenda: checks
RichEO: bets $30
sayenda: calls $30

----- RIVER ----- [ ][]
sayenda: checks
RichEO:

Haven't noticed much about sayenda. I've only been at the table 30min and he's not playing many hands.

Do you value bet the river here?

Critique the other streets if you want too, but I'm pretty happy with the size of bets. Maybe a little larger bets are in order if you want less risk.

Reveal to follow

[Longy]

Every time its not even close, make it about $60.

[Smart Money]

Yes, I would value bet the river. Few players check a made flush on the river- it's far more likely he has an Ace, especially given that the Ace of hearts is out.

Pre-flop, I prefer to open-raise to 4BB and I think you are losing a lot of value with such small flop and turn bets.

Something like $25 into the $30 flop bet will get called by most aces who chose to call pre-flop.

Then, on the turn which is now $80 pot, you could bet, say, $60- giving you a $200 pot on the river.

[GlasgowBandit]

I dunno, whats he been check calling with?  2 pair, KQ, 2 4 suited, FD?

I'd be expecting the FD to bet out when he missed the turn, similarly I'd be expecting the to bet when the flush misses on the turn.

I think I am happy to take whats in the middle because if he has hit a flush then I'd be disgusted if he raised because I'd probably end up paying him off.

[Graham C]

I agree with Bandit.  You've taken the lead all the way through and he's flat called.  He may be expecting a bet here and look to c/r.  I'd be happy with the money that's there.  If he's not hit much then he'll only fold to the bet anyway, at least this way you get to see his cards and see how he plays a bit.

[Smart Money]

I dunno, whats he been check calling with?  2 pair, KQ, 2 4 suited, FD?

Given that the hand has been posted, I'd guess he did have the flush!

However, in most situations here, I'd expect to see [something like] AQ. Perhaps AcXc.

[RichEO]

Yes, I would value bet the river. Few players check a made flush on the river- it's far more likely he has an Ace, especially given that the Ace of hearts is out.

Pre-flop, I prefer to open-raise to 4BB and I think you are losing a lot of value with such small flop and turn bets.

Something like $25 into the $30 flop bet will get called by most aces who chose to call pre-flop.

Then, on the turn which is now $80 pot, you could bet, say, $60- giving you a $200 pot on the river.

I only bet $15 on the flop as it is a multiway pot. I don't mind 2 or 3 callers with this strong a hand. Mainly as long as a heart doesn't fall I'm infront to anyone who has called $15. (I don't expect gutshots to pay $15 on a flushing board!). So I'm 2-1 favourite vs however many opponents come in. I like having them along for the ride incase I house up or the flush misses. So the $15 was to hopefully get more than 1 opponent in.

With only 1 opponent, on the turn I bet $30 into a $60 pot, not a bad bet (as it gives wrong pot odds for a flush, 3/1 pot odds with 4/1 to hit), but considering I pay off a small bet when the flush hits and fold to a large bet when it hits I suppose there is value in them chasing it or trying to represent it. Then I should probably bet a bit more to make sure the situation is profitable when the 'mistakes' are made on the river.

If I had 2 callers on the flop, I think I bet more on the turn now anyway, just as it brought a 2nd flush draw and you never know what they are playing

[AlexMartin]

opponent specific v bet on river here. Oppo has to be pretty bad to call with worse hand on river AFTER GETTING THERE like this.

[RichEO]

I had a hand similar to this a while ago where I had top 2 pair, the flush came on the river and I checked behind the other player. He had the flush and I felt smug for checking. Someone also said nice check in the chatbox.

I'm checking beucase I'm scared of the flush. If I bet I am hoping to get called by a worse hand, how many hands actually call me? Those who say bet.. how much do you make it? Does it have to be small to get a call from something like AQ, $30 again? But then this shows weakness, $30 doesnt say flush and what do I do if he goes all-in.

I know it would take a savvy opponent to check the flush to me, or to check raise bluff me. But I'm sure they exist.

When the flush hit and he checked the river I insta-checked. But then I thought is checking correct - and why this history is here.

The hands that would pay me off having checked here would be AJ or 33. I imagine that they show some strength before now or even bet out on the river not putting me of the FD having lead all the way.

[KarmaDope]

I check this river, mainly because it would be very easy for an opponent to check-raise with K-x of hearts...ESPECIALLY if it is K-Q of hearts, which is a calling hand preflop and is a hand I definitely check-call with.

Rich...did you actually win this hand?

[LuckyLloyd]

lol at checking this river behind. It's like lighting money on fire. Do you all hate money?

I prefer bigger bets on both the flop and turn - but PARTICULARLY the turn. He starts the hand with 176 and has 155 behind on the turn with a pot of 60.

His life is harder if he has 110 behind on the river with a pot of 150; than having 125 behind with a pot of 120. And it is easier for you to get the whole lot. Which should be your aim.

Now, I may not be a FR expert, blah, blah - but:

- Do people really chase a flush draw out of position and CHECK the river when it gets there in those games?
- He raises with AA somewhere, right?
- He can't realistically have 42 now, could he?
- Finally, can he really fold 33; AJ; A3 after coming this far?

BET.

[Longy]

I was tired last night, hence my short reply, though this will echo what Lloyd and Smart have said.

You lose VALUE on every street here, you have extracted around $50 from your opponent when realistically you could have got their whole stack. Making bigger bets isn't about reducing your risk, its about getting value from your monster. People love to chase and call down with mediocre hands so let them.

$20 on the flop at least, $50 on the turn then you can shove the river for the rest of Sayenda stack. Our hand and this board are excellent for this.

As for checking the river, well as Lloyd said pass the wallet and the lighter. Opponents bet out the rivered flush alot here, the % of opponents capable of bluff check raising this river at this level is less than 1%, they will call down with sets and 2pr hands. They might even get stubborn with ak,aq type hands.

[byronkincaid]

the thing is, if you bet bigger earlier you have no decision here, you just ship it in cos you is commited already.

[LuckyLloyd]

the thing is, if you bet bigger earlier you have no decision here, you just ship it in cos you is commited already.

That would be excellent. We committed ourselves to the pot and got heaps of money in when we were 100% sure we had the best hand. Sounds like good poker to me.

[RichEO]

Well, I think I'm against AQ or a FD. I am betting to extract value. If I bet too much they fold and I win nothing. If they have a big hand, I'm getting re-raised with 2 hearts on the board.

----- RIVER ----- [ ][]
sayenda: checks
RichEO: checks
----- SHOW DOWN -----
sayenda: shows [ ] (A Pair of Aces, King high)
RichEO: shows [ ] (Three of a kind, Jacks, Ace high)
RichEO collected $117 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot $120 Main pot $117 Rake $3


Really gald a club didn't come. I was paying that off, and another reason to bet bigger on the turn