£25 plus one rebuy or add on comp hand.

[bobby1]

Hi,

Looking for your view on how you would proceed here.

The rebuy period has just finished and you have 18k  in chips which is above average, only two others at the table have more than you, one a slider that has played very few hands and the other one pretty loose but slows when he is weakish.

You are under the gun with blinds at 100/200 with  and limp as the table isnt very aggressive and there are a few hands playing multiway. It is raised to 600 by a pretty loose player(has about 8k) and called by the button(8k) who has made some poor calls but also played at orphan pots and the sb(6k), I called the 400 more so we are 4 to the flop.

The flop is 

1600 in the pot and the sb bets out 1600. My feel for now is he has a king and cant be that strong as he would surely be raising pre flop with ace king and maybe even KQ. Due to the way this guy has played previous hands Im sure if he had flopped 2 pair he would go for the check raise. How do you proceed from here?

Your table image is varied, you have lead at a flop and runner runner'd into a str8 which brought a few knowing looks but you have also bet a flopped str8 strongly from the flop so you have varied your play nicely up to now.

thanks

[boldie]

I call here if I have 2 others to act behind me as I want them in the pot with me. SB leading out for 1/3 of his stack here means he will consider himself commited. If the loose player has a habit of reraising after he raised pre-flop SB also knows this and is therefore counting on it..he ain't going no where..and I woudn't want him to. I flatcall and hope loosey goosey re-raises.sb calls/moves all-in and my chippies go flying in

[TightEnd]

I think I make it 4,500. I assume the bb has passed

two way play....you make marginal hands pass, and if called you should be given given a free card if you need it on the turn to hit that heart on the river, or to fire again if your read suggests it

If the button does something like push then you get away, if he flat calls then you've got added implied odds

[boldie]

I think I make it 4,500. I assume the bb has passed

two way play....you make marginal hands pass, and if called you should be given given a free card if you need it on the turn to hit that heart on the river, or to fire again if your read suggests it

If the button does something like push then you get away, if he flat calls then you've got added implied odds

if button pushes for 8k total and you're made it 4500 you can't pass.

[TightEnd]

ok, call then!

you've still got 9-10k left with plenty of play

[boldie]

ok, call then!

you've still got 9-10k left with plenty of play

I know!..so why would you raise on the flop? wouldn't you want to leave that upto button boy to do it?.that's more chippies in the pot. (I would only do this if I think SB would calla  push by button boy)

[TightEnd]

because I'm happy to take the 3,200 in the pot here and now

[bobby1]

I think I make it 4,500. I assume the bb has passed

two way play....you make marginal hands pass, and if called you should be given given a free card if you need it on the turn to hit that heart on the river, or to fire again if your read suggests it

If the button does something like push then you get away, if he flat calls then you've got added implied odds

yes the bb had passed.

[boldie]

because I'm happy to take the 3,200 in the pot here and now

yes but SB is already commited and surely will not pass if he holds a decent king..and he surely would not have lead out without one. I think the OP is wrong when he says the table isn't very agressive and SB would maybe raise with KQ..no he wouldn't, not from the SB.
SB has just stuck 2200 of his 6k stack in the middle so he won't pass to your raise. Get the button to raise for you and get paid.

[MANTIS01]

Ok, well I think you can get yourself into a real pickle with this and to play so passively from the start is a mistake I see ALL the time.

You have a workable stack and yet decide to limp UTG with Q-10. Why? The reason you offer is..."and limp as the table isnt very aggressive". If this is the case and you really want to play the hand then why not raise?

In the 1st half of re-buys, chasing hands and trying to catch flops is ok because you only have 1K. But in the 2nd half I think this is a recipe for disaster. Personally I really don't see the point in putting a standard raise of 600 chips into the pot in two calling installments. If you are going to put 600 in then why not put it in first and get yourself on the psychological front foot in the hand right from the off?

As played how can you entertain calling a pot-sized bet here? You can't. Especially because you say "He can't be that strong". Raise or fold.

You LIMP pre-flop from UTG. You CALL a raise. You know the Q or 10 are no good so you can't CALL this bet hunting a heart. You just can't. What's more....you might not even get to see the turn for 1,600 with players behind. Would you then CALL a re-raise? You see how it's getting messy. It's just classic fishing and will only serve to decimate your stack.

Raise pre-flop and this is an simple re-raise on the flop. As it stands I raise here because calling with Q high is not something I want make a habit of in tournament play.

[boldie]

Ok, well I think you can get yourself into a real pickle with this and to play so passively from the start is a mistake I see ALL the time.

You have a workable stack and yet decide to limp UTG with Q-10. Why? The reason you offer is..."and limp as the table isnt very aggressive". If this is the case and you really want to play the hand then why not raise?

In the 1st half of re-buys, chasing hands and trying to catch flops is ok because you only have 1K. But in the 2nd half I think this is a recipe for disaster. Personally I really don't see the point in putting a standard raise of 600 chips into the pot in two calling installments. If you are going to put 600 in then why not put it in first and get yourself on the psychological front foot in the hand right from the off?

As played how can you entertain calling a pot-sized bet here? You can't. Especially because you say "He can't be that strong". Raise or fold.

You LIMP pre-flop from UTG. You CALL a raise. You know the Q or 10 are no good so you can't CALL this bet hunting a heart. You just can't. What's more....you might not even get to see the turn for 1,600 with players behind. Would you then CALL a re-raise? You see how it's getting messy. It's just classic fishing and will only serve to decimate your stack.

Raise pre-flop and this is an simple re-raise on the flop. As it stands I raise here because calling with Q high is not something I want make a habit of in tournament play.

damm straight I would call a  re-raise from the button on the flop..button is the reason I'm flat calling on this flop. Raising will not get rid of the SB (it simply shouldn't anyways) why not give button boy a chance to come in?

[bobby1]

Ok, well I think you can get yourself into a real pickle with this and to play so passively from the start is a mistake I see ALL the time.

You have a workable stack and yet decide to limp UTG with Q-10. Why? The reason you offer is..."and limp as the table isnt very aggressive". If this is the case and you really want to play the hand then why not raise?

In the 1st half of re-buys, chasing hands and trying to catch flops is ok because you only have 1K. But in the 2nd half I think this is a recipe for disaster. Personally I really don't see the point in putting a standard raise of 600 chips into the pot in two calling installments. If you are going to put 600 in then why not put it in first and get yourself on the psychological front foot in the hand right from the off?

As played how can you entertain calling a pot-sized bet here? You can't. Especially because you say "He can't be that strong". Raise or fold.

You LIMP pre-flop from UTG. You CALL a raise. You know the Q or 10 are no good so you can't CALL this bet hunting a heart. You just can't. What's more....you might not even get to see the turn for 1,600 with players behind. Would you then CALL a re-raise? You see how it's getting messy. It's just classic fishing and will only serve to decimate your stack.

Raise pre-flop and this is an simple re-raise on the flop. As it stands I raise here because calling with Q high is not something I want make a habit of in tournament play.

Mantis, you have for some reason assumed the stacks before the rebuy were 1k, Im not sure where you have got that from, the starting stack was 7.5k with blinds 100/100, this is one of the reasons that the table had seen plenty of multi way pots both un raised and raised.

As it stands I have 90 big blinds , earlier in the comp I had played a hand UTG the same way and re raised a late position raiser, this had enabled me to get into multi pots thru the comp from early position with hands I liked. If I had raised pre flop what would have changed? the guys after the raiser have called a raise of the same amount you have advised, why would they not call my raise too. Either way the same 4 players are prob gonna see the flop.

[MANTIS01]

Apologies Bobby if I assumed the starting stack was 1K. I got this from the fact that the "re-buy" period has just finished and personally I haven't encountered a re-buy tournament that gives you 7.5k in chips and blinds at 100/100.

That said though the structure is NOT the reason that lots of multi-way pots have been played. It is because no-one is raising. This is the point. If everyone is limping and wanting to see cheap flops why would you just run with the herd and follow suit. You need to go against the grain to be successful. If it's tight then play loose etc...

I see a LOT of players accumulate a healthy stack in the first period only for it to gradually dribble away in the second half by playing passively and chasing cards by calling. The massive difference that raising creates is pot ownership. You raise and signal to the table that UTG has such a good hand you are prepared to jack it up in 1st position. Yes they all call but they are the callers hoping to catch and you are the raiser. After the flop you can re-raise with Q high and represent a bigger hand than you actually have. That is the credit you get for taking the initiative pre-flop and someone with a weak king will put you on A-K and you win the pot without showing down a hand. In tournaments winning pots without showdown is what you want...unless you have strength that is...and here you have Q high. So here I want to win this pot without seeing the turn because it probably WONT be a heart and what am I going to do then?? In addition, if you do call and the heart comes who pays you??

[bobby1]

Apologies Bobby if I assumed the starting stack was 1K. I got this from the fact that the "re-buy" period has just finished and personally I haven't encountered a re-buy tournament that gives you 7.5k in chips and blinds at 100/100.

That said though the structure is NOT the reason that lots of multi-way pots have been played. It is because no-one is raising. This is the point. If everyone is limping and wanting to see cheap flops why would you just run with the herd and follow suit. You need to go against the grain to be successful. If it's tight then play loose etc...

I see a LOT of players accumulate a healthy stack in the first period only for it to gradually dribble away in the second half by playing passively and chasing cards by calling. The massive difference that raising creates is pot ownership. You raise and signal to the table that UTG has such a good hand you are prepared to jack it up in 1st position. Yes they all call but they are the callers hoping to catch and you are the raiser. After the flop you can re-raise with Q high and represent a bigger hand than you actually have. That is the credit you get for taking the initiative pre-flop and someone with a weak king will put you on A-K and you win the pot without showing down a hand. In tournaments winning pots without showdown is what you want...unless you have strength that is...and here you have Q high. So here I want to win this pot without seeing the turn because it probably WONT be a heart and what am I going to do then?? In addition, if you do call and the heart comes who pays you??

Yes I agree with most of that. With 90 big bilnds I am deffo wanting to see flops and play tho, its not a crapshoot tourney. Boldie is certain that the sb would be obliged to call with 22 bb left, I wasnt so sure.

Are you not worried by the original raiser that has yet to act?

Thanks

[TightEnd]

I don't think sb is obliged to call at all

we can be worried in every hand about players behind us

but recently I've been trying to take control of hands more, raising on draws to get free cards later etc etc. Here this is why I liked the raise to take that control.