Learn to play like a Pro

[blonde17]

 

Players play...those that can

[blonde17]

 

OOps possibly ended that last post a little soon ...by accident of course...

But, how many of the "Experts" teaching the course actually have to earn a living playing poker?
Are they cash or Tournament players? and...would any of the pro`s up and down the country recommend you listen to them?
I read lots of these so called experts articles in mags and online ( Some are good) but,  I have come across very few, if any, during my travels ...especially the one`s who claim to earn a living at the cash games.
As Flushy pointed out in a recent post "Those that can do...Those that can`t teach.
SKY mean well with there show but it`s not really aimed at helping casual players improve to a pro standard, it`s marketed at Joe Public to intrest them in poker...At least that was what they informed me when I dared to question the "Experts" presenting the show.
So I doubt there boot camp will be as strong as you would hope for at £250.
Only my opinion though....for what its worth.

[thediceman]

I received an email yesterday (along with many others I would assume) about Sky Poker boot camp next month and Im debating whether to go or not.

The main reason for considering it is that its local and ive always fancied going to one of these to learn how to "Raise my game"

The downside is that its £250 tho there are sats available.

Has anyone ever been to one of these boot camps and did they feel that they learned enough to justify the cost?

My first question is do the limits you currently play and likely to play in the future really warrant you forking out £250 for this boot camp. I've never been to one and really don't see what the added benefit is in considering the cost when there are is so much free information and advice readly available on the internet.

I think you would be better of saving the £250, maybe use some of it as a bankroll and find a mentor, I'm sure some friendly blonde who's game you admire may/willing to help you anaylsis your game.

[ifm]

£250!!!!!!

I reckon you could get 10 mins with Annette Obrewassit for that and i'm 100% convinced you'd learn more.
If you are intent on spending the money on improving then i'd say join cardrunners or pokerxfactor or even a personal coach, much better value than generic advice to a crowd of newbies.

[tikay]

Well, as you know, I'm connected with Sky Poker, so any opinion I give may not be deemed wholly subjective - I think that's fair comment. So read the following with that in mind, please.

Matt & Nick are both, imo, very good "teachers", in that, though they may not claim to have the best game in the world, they CAN explain the basics & intracies pretty well. IMO, of course. They do both, however, earn a nice living playing Online Cash. Devilfish is considered by many to be the UK's best Tourney player, but few would claim he can teach the game well - there's the difference.

The weekend will cover not just "at the table" play, but many, many, other things, including, for example, what I consider to be THE most important side of Poker - Bankroll Management & Bankroll Discipline, & much else besides.

£250 is a lot of money (it includes accommodation), but the idea is that players can, if they wish, try & win their Seats on Sky Poker Satellites.

The "experts" at Sky Poker are in fact called "Analysts" these days on the Show. Same peeps, different words, because I know many of you decent players would not call me an Expert.....but, surprising as it may seem to many, even I have the ability - & patience - to teach those at a certain level (entry level, perhaps) the fundamentals. Nobody who knows me even quarter well would expect me to claim I could teach anyone of medium & above ability too much about poker. And I would never try. I would, though, consider I'm able to teach Bankroll Discipline to players a hundred times better than I am - note how many very good (much better than I) players end up skint, or nipping 24/7./ Collectively, the Sky Poker Analysts have helped the Sky Poker players, as a body, to improve enormously over 12 months, though I shan't complain if my contributions are excluded from any credit for that.

The main body of tuition over the Boot Camp Weekend will be dione by Matt & Nick. Kara & I will be there, Kara on Saturday, & me on both days, to perform quite different roles. There will also be a camera Crew from Sky Poker there, hoping to interview as many players as possible.

Longy (I think) mentioned our (Sky "Analysts") reluctance, when on the Show, to tell players they've mangled a hand, instead suggesting we tell them they played it "well-ish", based on instructions from above. That's slightly disingenous, but I can see where that notion arises, & in fact it mirrors the endless debates about the blonde Poker Hand Analysis Board, namely, for example, does it really help when someone says "you muffed that, you idiot", or is it better if someone, carefully & patiently, explains "why". The instructions we all have at Sky are emphatically clear. "Do NOT be rude or offensive to the Sky Poker Players, because they are our Clients". But yes, we can point out that "maybe there was a better way to play that hand, have you considered this way?". It's all a matter of how it's said, rather than what's said.

I hope that explains the situation from an "insiders" perspective better Suzanne, though I remind you, again, that my Post has to be seen in the context that I work for Sky. The Weekend is NOT aimed at players who earn a living from the Game, it's more those who play at lower levels & are keen to try & improve quickly. These guys get ignored by so many in poker, but they happen to be, numerically, the majority, & that's why I have such pride in what Sky & indeed APAT has done.

I will bring this thread to the attention of Matt & Nick, & Sky Poker, too, as they may have something to add, in the hope that it helps answer Suzanne's question.

But I can tell you one thing. If Sky Poker players mess up a hand, be it at the Boot Camp, or on the Show, they will never be called idiots or donks or fools. Rather, it will be explained, with care & tact & patience, that it might be worth considering alternative ways to play that hand. I happen to strongly believe that people are much more likely to learn from being addressed in that manner. But I know many disagree with that, but then that's the rub, because we are all different, & neither way is necessarily right or wrong for everybody.

We pay our money (or not, as the case may be) & we take our choice.

[ifm]

LOL at the apat reference

[tikay]

LOL at the apat reference

Just for you. See, one-on-one stuff.

[thediceman]

The weekend will cover not just "at the table" play, but many, many, other things, including, for example, what I consider to be THE most important side of Poker - Bankroll Management & Bankroll Discipline, & much else besides.

I refer to my previous post about is it really worth a small stakes people paying £250 as this may represent several months bankroll. I appreciate the boot camp may provide good advice and may be worthwhile if you can get in on the cheap via a sat but for a "typical" recreational player who plays for small stakes means a £250 outlay for such a boot camp shouldn't even be considered IMO. As I said before there's plenty of advice already out there for free if your willing to do the research and more often than not a more experienced players are happy to give advice when asked.

[Longy]

Longy (I think) mentioned our (Sky "Analysts") reluctance, when on the Show, to tell players they've mangled a hand, instead suggesting we tell them they played it "well-ish", based on instructions from above. That's slightly disingenous, but I can see where that notion arises, & in fact it mirrors the endless debates about the blonde Poker Hand Analysis Board, namely, for example, does it really help when someone says "you muffed that, you idiot", or is it better if someone, carefully & patiently, explains "why". The instructions we all have at Sky are emphatically clear. "Do NOT be rude or offensive to the Sky Poker Players, because they are our Clients". But yes, we can point out that "maybe there was a better way to play that hand, have you considered this way?". It's all a matter of how it's said, rather than what's said.

Yeah it was me and while I complete understand sky's viewpoint here as they are promoting a poker site . I wouldn't be expecting poker stars to email saying that I'm a donk after a downswing.

Yet we are going have to agree to disagree about Sky's "analysts" advice being helpful for the most part. Telling someone that they played a hand fine but saying you could have played it like this, generally the person is only going to hear that they played the hand fine and carry on doing that.

While PHA on here no doubt has its problems (i think it seems to have settled down in the last month), I think the way the majority promote their views on that board is alot more constructive. I try (probably very badly) to be constructive in my view of a hand and don't believe I have called anyone a donk, fool or an idiot*, I feel there are ways and means of telling someone that a hand wasn't played well without being rude.

FWIW Tikay you are far too modest about your game, no one makes a consistent profit playing the games you do without having a pretty solid game.


* I'm probably opening myself up to people digging through the archives of me calling someone an idiot.

[tikay]

Longy (I think) mentioned our (Sky "Analysts") reluctance, when on the Show, to tell players they've mangled a hand, instead suggesting we tell them they played it "well-ish", based on instructions from above. That's slightly disingenous, but I can see where that notion arises, & in fact it mirrors the endless debates about the blonde Poker Hand Analysis Board, namely, for example, does it really help when someone says "you muffed that, you idiot", or is it better if someone, carefully & patiently, explains "why". The instructions we all have at Sky are emphatically clear. "Do NOT be rude or offensive to the Sky Poker Players, because they are our Clients". But yes, we can point out that "maybe there was a better way to play that hand, have you considered this way?". It's all a matter of how it's said, rather than what's said.

Yeah it was me and while I complete understand sky's viewpoint here as they are promoting a poker site . I wouldn't be expecting poker stars to email saying that I'm a donk after a downswing.

Yet we are going have to agree to disagree about Sky's "analysts" advice being helpful for the most part. Telling someone that they played a hand fine but saying you could have played it like this, generally the person is only going to hear that they played the hand fine and carry on doing that.

While PHA on here no doubt has its problems (i think it seems to have settled down in the last month), I think the way the majority promote their views on that board is alot more constructive. I try (probably very badly) to be constructive in my view of a hand and don't believe I have called anyone a donk, fool or an idiot*, I feel there are ways and means of telling someone that a hand wasn't played well without being rude.

FWIW Tikay you are far too modest about your game, no one makes a consistent profit playing the games you do without having a pretty solid game.


* I'm probably opening myself up to people digging through the archives of me calling someone an idiot.

Thanks Longy. Yes, the PHA Board is coming along nicely, & I'm much indebted to you, amongst several others, for helping it to become a more user-friendly learning tool. I hope you never thought I was referring to you in the context of abrubt, non-helpful, replies, I was not.

As you correctly say, & on this we agree 100%, there are, in my opinion, better ways to help people learn. And you have shown - even if I have not - that you don't need to be a top "name" winning player to be able to help Players grasp fundamentals.

Let me give a single example of a fundamental that many new players struggle to grasp. To anyone who plays the game at "our" level, it's almost breath-taking that it needs explanation - but it DOES. Many new players to Poker don't understand the difference between shoving with any two, & calling with ditto. Yes, I hear all the big boys laugh, "everyone knows that". But they DON'T. And when they learn that very crucial thing, their game changes completely. Obviously!

Now, to those who say so-called experts can't play, so they teach, well fine. I'm no "Expert", but even I'm perfectly capable - & patient enough - to help teach fundamentals like that, & so are Nick & Matt. And you.

Is £250 too much to learn such basics? In itself, probably. But add 100 or more similar scenarios, & maybe it is value, (though I remind all of my vested interest) to those who want the satisfaction of playing the game just a little better. Anyway, whatever happens, the Weekend will be about more than just learning, it will be a fun weekend, & I'm very confident that those who attend will consider it good value. You know me well enough to realise I'd not be (a small) part of it if I thought otherwise.

Hope to see you at DTD tonight. Preferably not on my table......

[KeithyB]

I really would like some opinions.

Suz, looking down the schedule I'd say it's pretty basic level tuition aimed more at beginner level than intermediate. Also factor in that there will be 120 people at the boot camp and this has to reduce the impact of anything that is trying to be taught.

Also remember that your £250 is also paying for overnight accommodation, meals, drinks etc so you're not actually getting £250's worth of poker tuition anyway.

That's not to say you wouldn't pick up a few tips but I'd say that Suz there is a definite danger you'd end up sitting there thinking.....hmmm, I know that......hmmmm I know that too.......

For me the Boot Camp doesn't look to be worth £250 for anyone just looking to get poker tuition out of it and as Longy suggests the whole thing is likely to have/be a huge PR showcase.

However for someone who wants to just enjoy what is likely to be a fun weekend with some basic poker tuition thrown in then they may very well consider it worthwhile. Someone that is motivated by getting possible exposure/interview on TV and generally increasing their profile within the Sky Poker community then £250 is probably represents decent value for the package.

Not to mention there will be several poker celebrities there..............and Tikay !   

Seriously though I don't think it'll be worth £250 to you Suz in terms of improving your game. 

Nothing wrong with trying to satellite in though and good luck with that.

[snoopy1239]

Longy (I think) mentioned our (Sky "Analysts") reluctance, when on the Show, to tell players they've mangled a hand, instead suggesting we tell them they played it "well-ish", based on instructions from above. That's slightly disingenous, but I can see where that notion arises, & in fact it mirrors the endless debates about the blonde Poker Hand Analysis Board, namely, for example, does it really help when someone says "you muffed that, you idiot", or is it better if someone, carefully & patiently, explains "why". The instructions we all have at Sky are emphatically clear. "Do NOT be rude or offensive to the Sky Poker Players, because they are our Clients". But yes, we can point out that "maybe there was a better way to play that hand, have you considered this way?". It's all a matter of how it's said, rather than what's said.

Yeah it was me and while I complete understand sky's viewpoint here as they are promoting a poker site . I wouldn't be expecting poker stars to email saying that I'm a donk after a downswing.

Yet we are going have to agree to disagree about Sky's "analysts" advice being helpful for the most part. Telling someone that they played a hand fine but saying you could have played it like this, generally the person is only going to hear that they played the hand fine and carry on doing that.

While PHA on here no doubt has its problems (i think it seems to have settled down in the last month), I think the way the majority promote their views on that board is alot more constructive. I try (probably very badly) to be constructive in my view of a hand and don't believe I have called anyone a donk, fool or an idiot*, I feel there are ways and means of telling someone that a hand wasn't played well without being rude.

FWIW Tikay you are far too modest about your game, no one makes a consistent profit playing the games you do without having a pretty solid game.


* I'm probably opening myself up to people digging through the archives of me calling someone an idiot.

Thanks Longy. Yes, the PHA Board is coming along nicely, & I'm much indebted to you, amongst several others, for helping it to become a more user-friendly learning tool. I hope you never thought I was referring to you in the context of abrubt, non-helpful, replies, I was not.

As you correctly say, & on this we agree 100%, there are, in my opinion, better ways to help people learn. And you have shown - even if I have not - that you don't need to be a top "name" winning player to be able to help Players grasp fundamentals.

Let me give a single example of a fundamental that many new players struggle to grasp. To anyone who plays the game at "our" level, it's almost breath-taking that it needs explanation - but it DOES. Many new players to Poker don't understand the difference between shoving with any two, & calling with ditto. Yes, I hear all the big boys laugh, "everyone knows that". But they DON'T. And when they learn that very crucial thing, their game changes completely. Obviously!

Now, to those who say so-called experts can't play, so they teach, well fine. I'm no "Expert", but even I'm perfectly capable - & patient enough - to help teach fundamentals like that, & so are Nick & Matt. And you.

Is £250 too much to learn such basics? In itself, probably. But add 100 or more similar scenarios, & maybe it is value, (though I remind all of my vested interest) to those who want the satisfaction of playing the game just a little better. Anyway, whatever happens, the Weekend will be about more than just learning, it will be a fun weekend, & I'm very confident that those who attend will consider it good value. You know me well enough to realise I'd not be (a small) part of it if I thought otherwise.

Hope to see you at dtd tonight. Preferably not on my table......

I pushed with 7-2o once in a Walsall £300er and got caught by A-K. Flopped a house. Max from Luton was outraged. Happy days.

[Longy]

Longy (I think) mentioned our (Sky "Analysts") reluctance, when on the Show, to tell players they've mangled a hand, instead suggesting we tell them they played it "well-ish", based on instructions from above. That's slightly disingenous, but I can see where that notion arises, & in fact it mirrors the endless debates about the blonde Poker Hand Analysis Board, namely, for example, does it really help when someone says "you muffed that, you idiot", or is it better if someone, carefully & patiently, explains "why". The instructions we all have at Sky are emphatically clear. "Do NOT be rude or offensive to the Sky Poker Players, because they are our Clients". But yes, we can point out that "maybe there was a better way to play that hand, have you considered this way?". It's all a matter of how it's said, rather than what's said.

Yeah it was me and while I complete understand sky's viewpoint here as they are promoting a poker site . I wouldn't be expecting poker stars to email saying that I'm a donk after a downswing.

Yet we are going have to agree to disagree about Sky's "analysts" advice being helpful for the most part. Telling someone that they played a hand fine but saying you could have played it like this, generally the person is only going to hear that they played the hand fine and carry on doing that.

While PHA on here no doubt has its problems (i think it seems to have settled down in the last month), I think the way the majority promote their views on that board is alot more constructive. I try (probably very badly) to be constructive in my view of a hand and don't believe I have called anyone a donk, fool or an idiot*, I feel there are ways and means of telling someone that a hand wasn't played well without being rude.

FWIW Tikay you are far too modest about your game, no one makes a consistent profit playing the games you do without having a pretty solid game.


* I'm probably opening myself up to people digging through the archives of me calling someone an idiot.

Thanks Longy. Yes, the PHA Board is coming along nicely, & I'm much indebted to you, amongst several others, for helping it to become a more user-friendly learning tool. I hope you never thought I was referring to you in the context of abrubt, non-helpful, replies, I was not.

As you correctly say, & on this we agree 100%, there are, in my opinion, better ways to help people learn. And you have shown - even if I have not - that you don't need to be a top "name" winning player to be able to help Players grasp fundamentals.

Let me give a single example of a fundamental that many new players struggle to grasp. To anyone who plays the game at "our" level, it's almost breath-taking that it needs explanation - but it DOES. Many new players to Poker don't understand the difference between shoving with any two, & calling with ditto. Yes, I hear all the big boys laugh, "everyone knows that". But they DON'T. And when they learn that very crucial thing, their game changes completely. Obviously!

Now, to those who say so-called experts can't play, so they teach, well fine. I'm no "Expert", but even I'm perfectly capable - & patient enough - to help teach fundamentals like that, & so are Nick & Matt. And you.

Is £250 too much to learn such basics? In itself, probably. But add 100 or more similar scenarios, & maybe it is value, (though I remind all of my vested interest) to those who want the satisfaction of playing the game just a little better. Anyway, whatever happens, the Weekend will be about more than just learning, it will be a fun weekend, & I'm very confident that those who attend will consider it good value. You know me well enough to realise I'd not be (a small) part of it if I thought otherwise.

Hope to see you at dtd tonight. Preferably not on my table......

Thanks for the kind words, Tikay. I took no offence from your post referring to PHA was just drawing comparisons like you did in your original post. Takes a bit to offend me, hell i use to play the pot limit rebuys at Gala Notts regularly, you had to be pretty thick skinned to play them.

I won't be at DTD tonight, mainly as im attending a friends birthday do. Yet i tend not to play the higher stakes MTT's as it is certainly my weakest form of poker and im not really happy with the varience that it brings when my edge is pretty small if I have one at all.

Gl to all blondes playing it and I might pop down tomorrow to see whats going on and play some cash.

[Grier78]

The weekend will cover not just "at the table" play, but many, many, other things, including, for example, what I consider to be THE most important side of Poker - Bankroll Management & Bankroll Discipline, & much else besides.

I refer to my previous post about is it really worth a small stakes people paying £250 as this may represent several months bankroll. I appreciate the boot camp may provide good advice and may be worthwhile if you can get in on the cheap via a sat but for a "typical" recreational player who plays for small stakes means a £250 outlay for such a boot camp shouldn't even be considered IMO. As I said before there's plenty of advice already out there for free if your willing to do the research and more often than not a more experienced players are happy to give advice when asked.

I think that quite a lot of the players who play sky poker would be quite happy to pay £250 for a weekend of poker tuition, they don't have bankrolls, they just stick £10 each time they want to play the open. They are not 'poker' players, just regular people who enjoy doing somthing different on a weeknight. They probably don't want to become a poker pro, just learn how to enjoy thier hobby better (and possibly win a couple of quid now and then).

It is amazing sometimes what people don't know, a friend who has been playing for a couple of years told me that 10-J suited was always 50% against any other hand! Even Phil Helmouth in his very early days believed that AK offsuit was better than AK suited because there were two flushes you could hit.

A course like this will help those players stuck in beginner to jump up to intermediate, well worth the money IMHO.

[TheWaster]

Hi all - Matt Broughton here.

Tikay has already done a sterling job of explaining the boot camp so i won't just repeat all that here. You're right in that it will be tough to make a course that appeals to all attendees, but we are firmly placing this as beginner to intermediate: people that play a little, fancy getting more into it and want to talk in more detail about the power of position, how important bankroll is, the difference between live and online play, tells, hand reading, etc.

Anyone who says to people 'I'm a poker player' won't get a lot out of this. People who say 'I love poker. I'd like to get better' will find this very useful.

Poker has been making a healthy contribution to my income since I gave up full time employment 3 years ago, so I feel confident I can offer some words of help to such people. Nick lived in Vegas for a number of years living as a day-in day-out pro so i don't think anyone can argue that he isn't valid as an instructor. He has also recently instructed at the 888 boot camps, so is familiar with these affairs. Tikay you know, and Kara is a great example of someone who didn't even play poker a few years ago but has now studied, practiced, and enjoyed many successes, so i think her input will also be invaluable to the attendees.

£250 isn't cheap, but we expect a large number to play their way in through the various online sats. The weeked will be A LOT of fun - not just powerpoint lessons. We have lots of interactive sessions, a gala tourney, dinner, Q&As, etc etc. We want it to be a real event on the Sky calendar.

Finally, i can assure you it is NOT a PR excercise. Myself and Nick were very specifically commissioned to create and deliver a solid 2-day course that would help casual players begin to open themselves up to concepts beyond "what hand have I got?"

I hope that gives you a little to go on, and hope it answers the questions you have. If anyone wants to PM me, please do so. You can find more info on the Sky site.

Cheers

Matt B