An interesting ruling

[TightEnd]

UTG raises to 6,000

Mid Position pushes for 37,000 and change 

back to UTG he calls

Pusher wins the hand

its 31,900 precisely more to the UTG

Dealer says "39,100 to you" and the UTG hands over 40,000 receiving 900 change

Two hands later UTG pipes up

"Hold on it was 31,900 not 39,100. Dealer you've made a mistake"

the Pusher checks his chips and yes indeed his chip stack is 7,200 over the amount of his double up plus blinds and antes

Both parties agree that a mistake has been made


The floor is called


the ruling is as follows

a) errors have to be rectified prior to the end of the hand. The UTG player should have spoken up then. So two hands later it is far too late to adjust chips. The dealer error is unfortunate but one of those things

b) and this is what I thought was interesting: Even though the pusher has agreed to correct for the mistake and to pass 7,200 chips back to UTG the TD says this is not possible as the tournament has moved on.

The tournament continues with no adjustment to stacks

as the pusher would you ever agree to passing the 7,200 chips back?

If you would agree, do you think you should be allowed to?

Or has the TD handled this impeccably?


Venue and TD irrelevant to this discussion!

[AndrewT]

I can understand the TD's stance on not messing with the dynamics of the tournament once it has moved on, but I think it's a bit nitty.

Moving the chips across two hands late is closer to preserving the natural order of things than not moving them at all.

[Claw75]

In the interests of fairness and integrity, yes, I would agree to give back the chips.  If both players accept there has been a mistake and are happy to rectify it among themselves I don't really see why the TD should need to be involved.  If the pusher was kicking up saying 'you should have said something earlier, I don't want to give them back', THAT would be the time to call the TD IMO.  In that case I think the ruling would be correct.

[MANTIS01]

A casino, cards, chips, dealers and TD's are all there to facilitate a game between adults and this is why you pay your juice. But in my mind they can't be allowed to compromise my ethics. So yes, I would pay the man his rightful bet. 

Interesting and similar one from the Grosvenor Grand Prix two years ago. 15 players remain when UTG pushes all-in, everyone folds around to M Cartwright on the bb. Matt asks the dealer for a count. Dealer says "36k" ( I can't remember the exact amounts) and Matt says "CALL". Hands go on their backs and Matt is behind. Dealer checks the all-in bet and has mis-counted because the bet is actually 46k. Matt protests because he called a 36k bet but would not have called a 46k bet. TD said he had to call the full bet??

[boldie]

Yes I would give the chips back...BUT the TD is of course right.

What would make the situation very interesting is if the person who won that hand donks off all his chips (minus say 10k) the following hand and would then have to hand 7200 out of that amount back.

You can't play 2 hands and then complain. Pay attention and mention it earlier.

Like I said..I would have given the chips back but both players in the pot should have paid more attention to it to begin with and can't complain about the ruling now.

[ariston]

A casino, cards, chips, dealers and TD's are all there to facilitate a game between adults and this is why you pay your juice. But in my mind they can't be allowed to compromise my ethics. So yes, I would pay the man his rightful bet. 

Interesting and similar one from the Grosvenor Grand Prix two years ago. 15 players remain when UTG pushes all-in, everyone folds around to M Cartwright on the bb. Matt asks the dealer for a count. Dealer says "36k" ( I can't remember the exact amounts) and Matt says "CALL". Hands go on their backs and Matt is behind. Dealer checks the all-in bet and has mis-counted because the bet is actually 46k. Matt protests because he called a 36k bet but would not have called a 46k bet. TD said he had to call the full bet??

that ruling is incorrect. If he has asked for a count and been told it is 36k to call then that is all he is obliged to call. If it is then found out it is actually 46k it has been a dealer error and he has all the options open to him again (ie call or fold). This is why you ask for a count. As for the original one the TD has taken the letter of the rules too acurately and I would be asking the question who asked for a ruling? When I have seen similar things happen the players make a point of saying there is no need for a ruling, I will just give him his chips back. If a ruling is asked for you have to accept it even if an incorrect ruling is made. The TD has a difficult job to do and we should respect his decision. The TD is never wrong, even when he is

[dik9]

In original question TD was spot on IMHO

What if the following hand the recipiant of those chips got knocked out, can the short changed loser of the last pot claim chips from the winner of the present hand?,and the winner of the present hand gets knocked out next, can the short changed loser claim then? Decisions in the last two hands have been made according to chips in front of players. Action has gone too far IMO.

[dealerFROMhell]

Right ruling. If he ruled the other way, it leaves loads of avenues for chip dumping etc.

[doubleup]

A casino, cards, chips, dealers and TD's are all there to facilitate a game between adults and this is why you pay your juice. But in my mind they can't be allowed to compromise my ethics. So yes, I would pay the man his rightful bet. 

Interesting and similar one from the Grosvenor Grand Prix two years ago. 15 players remain when UTG pushes all-in, everyone folds around to M Cartwright on the bb. Matt asks the dealer for a count. Dealer says "36k" ( I can't remember the exact amounts) and Matt says "CALL". Hands go on their backs and Matt is behind. Dealer checks the all-in bet and has mis-counted because the bet is actually 46k. Matt protests because he called a 36k bet but would not have called a 46k bet. TD said he had to call the full bet??

This is a really difficult one.  The only solution I can see is for the td to rule no further action in the hand and the additional chips to be returned to the player. 

As far as the original situation, if the dealer confirms the error and both players agree, I think that the TD might have been flexible, but I can understand him taking the decision that he did.

[turny]

easy ruling, the tournament has moved on the chips stay where they are

[Rookie (Rodney)]

I think this all depends on what he pushed with and what he got called by ?

[turny]

I think this all depends on what he pushed with and what he got called by ?

why?

[Rookie (Rodney)]

I think this all depends on what he pushed with and what he got called by ?

why?

lol, im interested..

[turny]

cant believe the TD is in question here tbh fairly straightforward.

interesting that tighty should post this must be something personal for him to do so imo, so come on where and when?

[celtic]

been on both sides of this situation, once in luton where the dealer messed up the side pot, the dealer said it was correct when i questioned, we moved on he kept dealing the next hand, kept thinkin about it and it just didnt add up ( i ended up with half of what i should have had), told the dealer and he sorted it out 2 hands after it had happened. Everyone happy.

And recently at walsall was playing with my chips that were in the big blind in front of me, picked them up when i went to look at my cards, folded to the action in front of me, mucked my cards and held on to the 2k. it was only after the next hand had been dealt that i realised i still had them in my hand and coughed up to my mistake (no one else noticed) and handed them over to the winner of the previous pot.

Again everyone happy, no need for rulings etc. Best way IMO.