Ready to call then.....

[UpTheMariners]

interesting to see pab play this the same way as me pre flop on his vid 'in the well' hand 251.

The situation is dissimilar post flop.

[MANTIS01]

OK but in this hand the pre-flop action wasn't a major talking point. The bulk of the strat and discussion was about the flop onwards...even though many suggested their preference was raising pre.

What I'm talking about is the line that if you play them strongly on the flop you only get worse to fold and whether it is a good line for tournaments with a hand like Jacks. Pab plays his over-pair jacks fast and strong on the flop and this demonstrates he didn't have this mentality at all. And that was even though he must have been pretty certain he had the best hand.

I think if you only take away from his hand that his pre-flop action was the same then you are missing the fact that he rejected the strat about getting worse to fold. And that was the main talking point in this thread.

Even though the flops are a little different I don't think the appearance of a single Q should affect thoughts about your hand significantly enough to play the hand out completely differently. But if you are going to use this pab video as a reference I think it would be amiss not to mention that in an actual tournament situation he forced worse to fold to take down risk-free chips. And that has been my stance throughout.

[RobS]

Mantis I really want to learn how these chips are "risk-free". Thanks in advance.

[MANTIS01]

You win them risk free as soon as you force your oppo to fold. Perhaps lower risk, or no outdraw risk would be a more accurate term. I don't think this really detracts from the point i'm making though Rob.

[UpTheMariners]

risk free but im like 55% at best against his range.

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: UpTheMariners

risk free but im like 55% at best against his range.

Sorry Mariners, I don't know where you get this figure from. We have no history about the player in the op so this is just guessing.

[UpTheMariners]

so you dont know the player so he doesnt have a range?

[MANTIS01]

Every player has a range. The more information you have about that player the thinner the range will be.

Unknown player = Unknown range

The less you know a player the wider his range, and thats why I say suggesting that you're 55% at best against an unknown range is guesswork.

[GlasgowBandit]

Every player has a range. The more information you have about that player the thinner the range will be.

Unknown player = Unknown range

The less you know a player the wider his range, and thats why I say suggesting that you're 55% at best against an unknown range is guesswork.

Isn't every range guesswork though?

Your digging a big deep hole Mantis you'll need a JCB to get you out. 

[Royal Flush]

Isn't every range guesswork though?

Yes but that doesn't help the Mantis argument.

[GlasgowBandit]

Isn't every range guesswork though?

Yes but that doesn't help the Mantis argument.

I know

[MANTIS01]

Look, Colombo, Miss Marple & Jessica feckin Fletcher could all bowl up to a murder scene together....but without clues they aint gonna solve the crime. Yes, they could just take a stab and say there's a 55% chance it was Colonel Mustard in the library with a candlestick...but with no body, no candlestick and no library I'd say they were skating on thin ice myself.

The more clues you have the closer to the truth you are.

No clues = guess imo.

[Royal Flush]

Look, Colombo, Miss Marple & Jessica feckin Fletcher could all bowl up to a murder scene together....but without clues they aint gonna solve the crime. Yes, they could just take a stab and say there's a 55% chance it was Colonel Mustard in the library with a candlestick...but with no body, no candlestick and no library I'd say they were skating on thin ice myself.

The more clues you have the closer to the truth you are.

No clues = guess imo.

They would be able to deduce it was the scene of a murder though.....

[RobS]

Look, Colombo, Miss Marple & Jessica feckin Fletcher could all bowl up to a murder scene together....but without clues they aint gonna solve the crime. Yes, they could just take a stab and say there's a 55% chance it was Colonel Mustard in the library with a candlestick...but with no body, no candlestick and no library I'd say they were skating on thin ice myself.

The more clues you have the closer to the truth you are.

No clues = guess imo.

I've changed my Avatar for the first time ever, purely as a tribute to Mantis. This is absolute nonsense mate. If someone unknown to you open raises in ep of course you can make a "best guess" as to their range and play accordingly. That's basically what poker is. Making a best guess as to opponents ranges and playing your hand accordingly.

And if you can't see why check calling a queen high board with jacks and checkraising a raggy board with jacks are probably both the best plays then you might aswell give up!

[UpTheMariners]

who said the player is unknown? maybe i know what room the murder took place but why would i want to give out that information out muuuuuhahahahahaa...