Medium pairs in cash games - is limping good?

[kinboshi]

I played a hand on Saturday on a 50p/£1 cash table at DTD, and a few of the other players questioned my play.  I think it makes sense, but wanted the opinion of people on here.

All 9 seats on the table are occupied, and the standard of play isn't fantastic.  There are few players at the table who like to make bluffs at a lot of hands, and there are a few calling stations (who have interestingly have taken a lot of money off the bluffers).  One calling station is particularly unusual, as he takes it to the extreme.  He doesn't look at his cards pre-flop on most hands.  He'll call almost any raise, from any position saying that 'any two cards' can win, and he doesn't see the point of raising pre-flop (a very large bet, or re-raise would make him look at his hand first, and he would fold then).  Others try to discuss this with him, but I'm happy for him to play like this and take his money.  He also calls post-flop a lot, and assumes that people only raise with big aces and so when they bet the flop, his bottom pair is often good. 

Anyway, that's a bit of an aside really.  Back to the point of the post.

On a table such as this - which is typical of the 50p/£1 tables at DTD, how would you be playing the bigger medium pairs, of TT or JJ (should I add 99 and QQ here as well)?  I find that there seems to be very little point of raising with them, as despite my tight image, I'm usually getting at least 2 or 3 callers - and then I'm going to have to tread very carefully on most flops.  If it's folded round to me (or there are a few limpers) and I'm in late position, I might stick a raise in half the time and just call the other half.  Basically, I'm set-mining with them, and when I do hit, I can make a lot of money.  But it does mean I'm throwing them away a lot of the time if there are overcards on the board and people are betting into it.

So although I can win big pots when I hit my set (as I did on this occasion with JJ), am I losing out on making money on the majority of occasions, or am I right to be playing them cautiously and avoiding losing money time after time with these hands when I have to lay them down post flop?  Should I be getting more out of these hands?

How do you eat yours?

[Longy]

Having played a bit of cash at DTD this seems to be pretty accurate description of the games. My preflop raising range when playing these games has been something like aq+,1010+. Unless something weird happens and I get isolate to a total donk or there are a few folds from ep.

All the smaller pairs Im happy to setmine with as long as im getting correct implied odds I normally go with 15 to 1 as a guide. So if someone makes it 5 to go, i have to be able to make 75 when i hit my set, in the raisors stack and the current pot. Im not purely set mining but im pretty happy to play very cautiously with overcards on the board etc.

[LuckyLloyd]

You are looking at the glass half empty rather than half full. The fact that you get called in multiple spots is irritating. The fact that you'll often see at least one overcard on flops; or a draw of some description is irritating. And ultimately the fact that you will lose pots with 99 - JJ is irritating.

However, if people are calling too much preflop it makes the value of hands like 22 - JJ INCREASE in value, not decrease. The higer end of the spectrum is going to be the best hand pre and postflop a lot. And if a raise to £3.50 generally gets 3 - 4 callers and stacks are 100BBs deep or so; you should be delighted to raise. Because flopping a set 4 way and getting loads of money in is going to be sexual.

On a general level, I used to have your mindset playing live cash. My poker background was live tournaments which played tighter and were no limit - so the game dynamics were more controlled (you could protect your hand by opening big / going all - in). Even the sickest degens in a Dublin cardroom will fold a few hands for the first hour of a tournament. But pot limit cash was a completely different animal. I used to hate the fact that I would raise with 88 - JJ // Big Aces // KQ - KJ and get four or five callers. I'd usually blindly continuation bet and get frustrated when I'd do all my money to the fella who limp called the pot bet preflop with the 93s.

However, you have to stop thinking like this. The fact that live cash players are retarded is awesome!! Raising with good hand strength and getting four callers who like to play 80% of their hands (and play them badly) is something to be welcomed. It is providing you with a very profitable game dynamic - but you need to adapt to the table conditions and act accordingly.

As such, I would definitely be opening pots for a raise with 88 - JJ // AJs+. The key is that I'm not going to get stubborn postflop:

- Don't continuation bet in multiway pots where the board has missed you (your Ax has missed / your pair didn't set and there are overcards on the board);

- Bet one pair hard for value (AJ on a A58 board / 88 on a 542 board etc) but remember that when playing bad players at lowstakes; and holding one pair; and getting raised - you should generally fold;

- Pay close attention to the way your opponents size their bets and the type of hand strength that they overvalue / undervalue. Live poker is often boring but if you can focus during the hour stretches where you are folding you can pick up a wealth of information from bad players that can be vital when you are facing a close post - flop decision with the type of hands you are asking about. There are the guys who will do all the loot with A7 on a 733 board and the guys who will never raise AK preflop / peel an extra card off flops with missed overcards;

- Get brave and look for spots where you can get thin value on a turn or river. Eventhough a board may not seem great for your holding, these guys can literally have any two. So if they all play two streets passively you can bet second pair or a pocket pair with one or two overs on the board for value;

If you are asking the questions in your op you are better than the oppositon. So be getting into raised pots with them. You just need to be disciplined and think your decisions through postflop. Accept that you will lose some pots to mad stuff and that sessions where you run bad will be incredibly frustrating. But so long as you can avoid tilting / bluffing / fancy play. In the longrun you'll crush guys like you have described. Just remember that at the most basic level, your edge will be derived from the fact that bad live players call too often with the worst hand and fail to bet for value often enough with the best hand.

Good luck.

[Longy]

You are looking at the glass half empty rather than half full. The fact that you get called in multiple spots is irritating. The fact that you'll often see at least one overcard on flops; or a draw of some description is irritating. And ultimately the fact that you will lose pots with 99 - JJ is irritating.

However, if people are calling too much preflop it makes the value of hands like 22 - JJ INCREASE in value, not decrease. The higer end of the spectrum is going to be the best hand pre and postflop a lot. And if a raise to £3.50 generally gets 3 - 4 callers and stacks are 100BBs deep or so; you should be delighted to raise. Because flopping a set 4 way and getting loads of money in is going to be sexual.

On a general level, I used to have your mindset playing live cash. My poker background was live tournaments which played tighter and were no limit - so the game dynamics were more controlled (you could protect your hand by opening big / going all - in). Even the sickest degens in a Dublin cardroom will fold a few hands for the first hour of a tournament. But pot limit cash was a completely different animal. I used to hate the fact that I would raise with 88 - JJ // Big Aces // KQ - KJ and get four or five callers. I'd usually blindly continuation bet and get frustrated when I'd do all my money to the fella who limp called the pot bet preflop with the 93s.

However, you have to stop thinking like this. The fact that live cash players are retarded is awesome!! Raising with good hand strength and getting four callers who like to play 80% of their hands (and play them badly) is something to be welcomed. It is providing you with a very profitable game dynamic - but you need to adapt to the table conditions and act accordingly.

As such, I would definitely be opening pots for a raise with 88 - JJ // AJs+. The key is that I'm not going to get stubborn postflop:

- Don't continuation bet in multiway pots where the board has missed you (your Ax has missed / your pair didn't set and there are overcards on the board);

- Bet one pair hard for value (AJ on a A58 board / 88 on a 542 board etc) but remember that when playing bad players at lowstakes; and holding one pair; and getting raised - you should generally fold;

- Pay close attention to the way your opponents size their bets and the type of hand strength that they overvalue / undervalue. Live poker is often boring but if you can focus during the hour stretches where you are folding you can pick up a wealth of information from bad players that can be vital when you are facing a close post - flop decision with the type of hands you are asking about. There are the guys who will do all the loot with A7 on a 733 board and the guys who will never raise AK preflop / peel an extra card off flops with missed overcards;

- Get brave and look for spots where you can get thin value on a turn or river. Eventhough a board may not seem great for your holding, these guys can literally have any two. So if they all play two streets passively you can bet second pair or a pocket pair with one or two overs on the board for value;

If you are asking the questions in your op you are better than the oppositon. So be getting into raised pots with them. You just need to be disciplined and think your decisions through postflop. Accept that you will lose some pots to mad stuff and that sessions where you run bad will be incredibly frustrating. But so long as you can avoid tilting / bluffing / fancy play. In the longrun you'll crush guys like you have described. Just remember that at the most basic level, your edge will be derived from the fact that bad live players call too often with the worst hand and fail to bet for value often enough with the best hand.

Good luck.

Nice post Lloyd, glad to see you making good strat posts again.

[kinboshi]

Thanks for the responses fellas .

Lloyd, what you're saying makes perfect sense.  I'm certainly not stubborn post-flop, and if anything I give my opponents too much credit and probably lay down the best hand too often.  So as that's the case, I should be willing to raise it up and get half a dozen callers, as I'll have the opportunity to make the pot huge when I do hit (or the flop is otherwise favourable).

What about playing against an early-position or middle position raise with these hands?  Do I just call and play the hand post-flop, rather than re-raising?  Also, would you consider QQ a 'medium pair' in these situations?

[byronkincaid]

position is key. you can limp early.

[dino1980]

Thanks for taking the time to post Lloyd. Very informative, plus your posts always deliever on the quoting for signatures front 

[LuckyLloyd]

What about playing against an early-position or middle position raise with these hands?  Do I just call and play the hand post-flop, rather than re-raising?  Also, would you consider QQ a 'medium pair' in these situations?

The great thing about live cash is that range protection isn't so much of an issue. People tend to play their own cards and forget everything else - so that means that you can 3 - bet a lot tighter than you would be able to get away with online or against decent players in a €1k+ tournament.

QQ is a big pair. JJ is a good pair. In the live games I play stacks tend to be very, very deep. It is common for the table average to be in the region of 250BBs. And you can sometimes be in a situation against a reg where you both have €1500 tanks on a 1 / 2 table.

The deeper you are, the more position is going to be a factor. In position, I'm 3 - betting JJ - AA and AKs. But if deep I may go so far as to flat call an open from the blinds with QQ and AKs. If you are against a poor player and have position you should be pumping JJ+ // AKo+ so that you can get him headsup / 3 way. However, if stacks are very deep or you will be oop to the opener then it may be better to proceed with caution.

Against tougher opposition you have to make sure that you don't fall into a rut of simply 3 betting AA and KK 100% of the time and flatcalling JJ, QQ and AK 100% of the time. Being in raised pots with deep stacks against thinking players who are able to narrow your range significantly on the basis of your preflop action is going to prove costly. But against droolers, you can simply operate within your comfort zone and 'play your hand' a lot.

[TightEnd]

excellent post Lloyd thanks

[LuckyLloyd]

Nice post Lloyd, glad to see you making good strat posts again.

No probs, hope it's useful. I'll stick to the learning centre for the next while.

[Graham C]

Very useful thanks.  I'm a bit nervous about play live cash games (never played live cash) I'm not even much of an online player, but threads like this certainly help to answer a few questions.

[kinboshi]

Very useful thanks.  I'm a bit nervous about play live cash games (never played live cash) I'm not even much of an online player, but threads like this certainly help to answer a few questions.

Graham, I've only been playing live cash for a few months now.  It's far softer (at the levels I play) than online.  So far the key for me has been patience and concentration.  I'm probably missing out on maximising my return (one of the reasons for this thread), but I'm winning consistently at the moment and building my roll gradually.

[boldie]

Very useful thanks.  I'm a bit nervous about play live cash games (never played live cash) I'm not even much of an online player, but threads like this certainly help to answer a few questions.

Graham, I've only been playing live cash for a few months now.  It's far softer (at the levels I play) than online.  So far the key for me has been patience and concentration.  I'm probably missing out on maximising my return (one of the reasons for this thread), but I'm winning consistently at the moment and building my roll gradually.

All cash at almost any level live is a lot softer than online. Some 2-5 and 5-10 games are the softest around because they are filled with guys with "endless monies" who gamble more than play poker..it's a beautifull thing...if they don't suck out on you Really Graham, give it a shot..you'll love it.

[Graham C]

Cheers Dan & Boldie, hopefully I'll be able to make the switch sucessfully, or at least enjoy it and know I've played ok.   I'll be giving it a go soon.  Aren't DTD holding APAT regionals now?  I was thinking of losing my DTD virginity at the next APAT event and hanging around for the evening tourney/cash games afterwards.

[boldie]

Cheers Dan & Boldie, hopefully I'll be able to make the switch sucessfully, or at least enjoy it and know I've played ok.   I'll be giving it a go soon.  Aren't DTD holding APAT regionals now?  I was thinking of losing my DTD virginity at the next APAT event and hanging around for the evening tourney/cash games afterwards.

coming to DtD this Thursday, you said? excellent idea! I'll come as well then!.