Should this player have to show ?

[Bainn]

This may look as though I am tring to play the devil's advocate here but this thought has just occurred:

What would have happened if player one had actually had the winning hand that he had misread and only discovered after a third party asked for the hand not to be mucked ?

This scenario could very easily happen at Omaha, and I'm sure that player two would not feel too kindly towards the third party 

Top advice/warning there, all those new to Omaha take heed especially those Blondes playing for the first time at the Blonde Bash.

Unless you are at my table..........

Karabiner proves that with age comes wisdom *

* Unless your name is Tony....

[Longy]

Getting back to the cash-game..

This actually happened at DTD last week and to be fair to player one he was blameless as player two simply exposed his hand rather quickly, and when player one was going to muck, I suggested that he was obliged to show and the dealer agreed, and he showed with no argument.

The player to my right however was adamant that this was incorrect procedure "in a cash-game", and at least one other player at the table agreed with him, so I was wondering if I might have been wrong to insist that he had to show.

At least one old fart agrees with me

That's because old farts, in general, try to play the game with some ethicacy, rather than exploit every possible loophole to gain an unfair advantage.

Lol Tikay, im not sure if this is a joke. Im going to have to disagree with age being related to manners/ethics in poker. You and I both cut our teeth at Notts gala and the main perpatrators of angle shooting, poor manners and other things were in general the older group.

Maybe its the sample size of playing live mainly in Nottingham, but this is not my experience.

Well, I did say "in general", & I do agree with the point you made about Gala Notts.

My view, I believe, remains valid. It's become OK to display lack of manners & bad etiquette, because that's deemed OK these days. The oafs on TV do it, be it in poker or football or whatever, & "globalisation" does the rest. And so, now, we have players disingenously claiming they are "playing with passion", (witness that gormless, brain-dead, Argentinian idiot who destroyed Liverpool's chances last Sunday, effectively saying to his team-mates "I don't give a toss about you or the Team") when in fact they are just dumb, lacking grace, decorum, manners or dignity.  Sport & Games reveals the true inner character. An arse on the pitch or table is usually an arse off it, & all this "I'm just passionate" nonsense is just that - hogwash.

But I agree that there are many youngsters who are impeccably mannered, & behave with dignity & ethicacy, and some wrinklies do not. The errant wrinklies are just bad, through & through, whereas many of the errant youngsters do not realise they are doing anything wrong, due to shockingly low education standards, & these days, poor behaviour is seen almost as a badge of honour. Drug abuse, for example, is almost admired in society these days, when in fact it should be wholly & thoroughly condemned.

Holy shit, I sound like an old missog.

I actually agree with the problems we have with "respect" in our society, which is starts at home and in school. Having been at the coal face as it were (teacher) in the past, there is definitley a problem but it isn't just a problem in education, its a problem in society.

 I think the problem has come about due to the fact that living in the UK is pretty much easy street for the majority these days, no war, mass poverty and therefore life is relatively easy, therefore there is little need for communities to pull together, its every man for themselves.

[byronkincaid]

google tells me that tobacco is more addictive than heroin. if cigarettes were made illegal tomorrow the price would shoot up and cause people to commit crimes to feed their addiction. If heroin were made legal tomorrow the price would drop and there would be much less crime.

I don't take any drugs btw cos I want to have a long healthy life. seems like 95% of the people in this country are trying to achieve a slow painful early death and are proud of it.

"you could get run over by a bus tomorrow!" LOL

[Bainn]

google tells me that tobacco is more addictive than heroin. if cigarettes were made illegal tomorrow the price would shoot up and cause people to commit crimes to feed their addiction. If heroin were made legal tomorrow the price would drop and there would be much less crime.

I don't take any drugs btw cos I want to have a long healthy life. seems like 95% of the people in this country are trying to achieve a slow painful early death and are proud of it.

"you could get run over by a bus tomorrow!" LOL

Indeed, most probaly a "Route Master" to boot......

And another thing, "Route Master" buse are coming to Nottingham again, you may now begin the "I hate you Butler..." jokes.....

[ariston]

not going to read everyone elses take on this before I say what i think.

in a cash game it is not neccessary for a player to show his hand. If any player on the table requests to see it then it must be shown. It is very bad ettiquette for players to request the losing players hand to be shown- why the hell do you need to see the hand? it just just slows the game down and makes someone show an inferior hand. It can also lead to problems where he shows his hand to find he has missread and he was going to muck the winner. Unless that hand has touched the muck or the muck has been destroyed the hand is still live and has a claim on the pot. If somone wants to muck his hand at showdown just let him- the first time you have someone show a winning hand that he didnt know he had will make you understand why (I have seen this happen 3 times over the years especially in omaha). If you want to see a hand that has in effect been mucked the dealer should touch the muck with it and/or destroy the flop meaning no claim can be then made on the pot.

[tikay]

not going to read everyone elses take on this before I say what i think.

in a cash game it is not neccessary for a player to show his hand. If any player on the table requests to see it then it must be shown. It is very bad ettiquette for players to request the losing players hand to be shown- why the hell do you need to see the hand? it just just slows the game down and makes someone show an inferior hand. It can also lead to problems where he shows his hand to find he has missread and he was going to muck the winner. Unless that hand has touched the muck or the muck has been destroyed the hand is still live and has a claim on the pot. If somone wants to muck his hand at showdown just let him- the first time you have someone show a winning hand that he didnt know he had will make you understand why (I have seen this happen 3 times over the years especially in omaha). If you want to see a hand that has in effect been mucked the dealer should touch the muck with it and/or destroy the flop meaning no claim can be then made on the pot.

So you prefer to sit & talk amongst yourselves, maybe go take a walk, or get a haircut, while some selfish oaf, who won't reveal his hand, amuses himself with that trick that even 7 year olds would find boring & juvenile - "squeezing" his hand to see what he's got, then assessing it slowly, looking at the Board, then back at his hand, a humph & a harph, a dwell, and then, eventually, mucking or tabling?

[doubleup]

1)  The order for showing is last to bet or raise shows first e.g. bet/call on river the bettor shows.  If river goes check check, then the person who last bet shows first.

2) Anyone in the game can ask to see a showdown hand, but it is poor etiquette to ask.

3) If a player involved in the pot at showdown asks to see a hand that is being mucked, that hand is live and will take the pot if it is a winner.  If a player not involved at showdown asks to see, the hand is not live (dealer should touch the muck with it and then show)

[ariston]

if someone is messing aout and doing all that by all means ask them to show their hand and say you will do so every time they want to slow things down. The original poster seemed to say at showdown it went check check and the 2nd man flipped over the winner hand and player one mucked- no messing or carloesque dwells- he was beat he just wanted to muck the losing hand. Why does anyone need to see it?

i still mantain it is poor ettiquette in a cash game to ask to see someones hand who is wanting to muck. The only time i would consider it good manners to do so would be if there is a suspision that 2 players are squeezing someone out of the pot and working together, this would be evident by betting patterns etc. You would be asking to see the hand then to let them know you are onto them in effect.

[ariston]

3) If a player involved in the pot at showdown asks to see a hand that is being mucked, that hand is live and will take the pot if it is a winner.  If a player not involved at showdown asks to see, the hand is not live (dealer should touch the muck with it and then show)

unfortunately many dealers dont know this rule and flip the hand over- I would say less than 20% of dealers know to touch the muck or destroy the flop before exposing someones hand. Ive had dealers flip my hand over at showdown because they "thought" someone asked to see when nobody had. It may be the thing to do at other casinos but up here it is seriously frowned upon to ask to see the losing players hand that he is trying to muck. Its almost a rubdown.

There are no set rules in cash games most are just common sense and the ettiquette side of things has been formed over the years. Asking to see someone elses hand is just poor form however you look at it.

[byronkincaid]

why not just have a rule that you have to show or muck within 5 seconds?

[doubleup]

It may be the thing to do at other casinos but up here it is seriously frowned upon to ask to see the losing players hand that he is trying to muck. Its almost a rubdown.

err see number 2

[ariston]

why not just have a rule that you have to show or muck within 5 seconds?

same reason we dont have rules to say no beards allowed or anyone over the age of 65 will not be allowed hot chocolate after 11pm. You cant have a rule to cover every eventuality. Its meant to be a gentlemans sport/game and players should act that way. ASking to see someones hand after they have tried to muck it comes under the conduct unbecoming rule for me (anyone who used to play cricket/hockey/rugby etc will know what I am saying- not like these footballers who roll around and swear at the ref).

[Simon Galloway]

1)  The order for showing is last to bet or raise shows first e.g. bet/call on river the bettor shows.  If river goes check check, then the person who last bet shows first.

Spot on, apart from those venues that decide to have a local rule that asks the player putting the last agressive action in to be first to show.  I couldn't now name a venue that does this, but somewhere must, because that is the view held by many during the showdown squabble.

It seems obvious that a lot of the stalling is because there is a difference of opinion as to the proper order on the river.  Regardless of who is right or wrong, while these diametrically opposed views are held, there will always be situations where both players are waiting for their opponent to correctly show first.

[Claw75]

In cash games I've got no strong feelings one way or the other on this, but I do think that any player at the table should be entitled to ask to see both hands at showdown in a tournament.  This is something that's come up a couple of times when I've been playing tournaments at DTD - their house rule is that a player may muck their cards if the other player shows a better hand (regardless of position).  The trouble with this is I think it's open to abuse and makes chip dumping possible - how is mateyboy who is not involved in the pot to know that Mr Big Stack hasn't just mucked the nuts after seeing his short-stacked pal turn over his hand?

[Horneris]

I think its fine for someone who has no real chance of winning to say similar to what they might say on High Stakes Poker or Poker After Dark if its them to show first.
They often say "No Pair" or "one Pair - Fours" and if the opponent turns over better i think its perfectly fine for them to muck.

Similarily, if the player with the best hand is to turn first, the loser should be able to muck showing nothing at all.