Should this player have to show ?

[ariston]

In cash games I've got no strong feelings one way or the other on this, but I do think that any player at the table should be entitled to ask to see both hands at showdown in a tournament.  This is something that's come up a couple of times when I've been playing tournaments at DTD - their house rule is that a player may muck their cards if the other player shows a better hand (regardless of position).  The trouble with this is I think it's open to abuse and makes chip dumping possible - how is mateyboy who is not involved in the pot to know that Mr Big Stack hasn't just mucked the nuts after seeing his short-stacked pal turn over his hand?

if people want to dump chips they arent gonna let it go to showdown are they? far easier way of dumping chips if you want to be a cheat.

[kinboshi]

I think its fine for someone who has no real chance of winning to say similar to what they might say on High Stakes Poker or Poker After Dark if its them to show first.
They often say "No Pair" or "one Pair - Fours" and if the opponent turns over better i think its perfectly fine for them to muck.

Similarily, if the player with the best hand is to turn first, the loser should be able to muck showing nothing at all.

But then you get the idiots dwelling, asking if 'one pair is good' (when there's a pair on the board), and then turning over one card, and the other player turning over the same card, so now the kickers need to be shown (and both cards need to be shown to win a showdown anyway), and it all takes too long and it's boring.

[Horneris]

Yeah but where i play no1 ever does that. But i see where you are coming from.

They should be shot imo.

[kinboshi]

Be interesting to get a dealer's perspective on this...

[tikay]

I think its fine for someone who has no real chance of winning to say similar to what they might say on High Stakes Poker or Poker After Dark if its them to show first.
They often say "No Pair" or "one Pair - Fours" and if the opponent turns over better i think its perfectly fine for them to muck.

Similarily, if the player with the best hand is to turn first, the loser should be able to muck showing nothing at all.

But then you get the idiots dwelling, asking if 'one pair is good' (when there's a pair on the board), and then turning over one card, and the other player turning over the same card, so now the kickers need to be shown (and both cards need to be shown to win a showdown anyway), and it all takes too long and it's boring.

That's SO annoying! They faff about, whilst we all sing songs & whistle to amuse ourselves for 10 minutes.

I saw an really odd thing at Blackpool (in a Tourney) last month, & neither player did it intentionally, it was deffo NOT angle-shooting, or improper, but Simon Zach & The Cumbrian (I think) got tangled up. It was a Q high board, & neither was keen to show, they both waited for the other, quite reasonably, as it was clear they both had spanners. Simon said "Queen?" but Cumbrian thought he said "Queen" - (note the subtle difference) & Cumbrian, holding 2nd Pair, promptly mucked. Simon was still not keen to show - "do I have to, he Mucked?", but Cumbrian is keen to see, as he's entitled, I feel, & Simon turns over 5 or 6 high for a Busted straight draw! A classic poker moment.

Personally, I think both hands should be obliged to be tabled here. I don't see that as bad etiquette, not at all.

[dik9]

Yes!

And the practice of trying to conceal one's hand at Showdown, in either Cash or Tourney, by waiting for the other to show & then mucking, should be deemed as unworthy conduct - almost everyone is doing it now, waiting for the other Player, & then quickly mucking.

Standards are dropping, & nobody cares, & folks get away with this antic 99 times out of 100. I'd have them Shot.

The "caller" Calls to SEE your Cards, &, win or lose, they have a right to see them, & thus, by default, BOTH sets of hands must be shown.

Getting all smart-arse & quickly mucking is as bad as farting in church.

Errrrrrrrrrmmmm, regardless of my thoughts on this, at DTD there is an order of showdown, last aggressive action shows first, in a check check situation however, left of the button shows first. At DTD no one has the right to ask to see the cards.
i.e. If you called to see, then the aggressor must show first, BUT if the caller turns his cards out of order and tables a winning hand, they forfeit the right to see the aggressors hand if the aggressor now mucks.

I am now going to hide behind a sofa  

Before I started at DTD, the rule I used was the caller could request. Some places used the anyone at the table could request (which I think is bollox btw)
DTD's rule on this actually makes sense to me now.

*Waits for the "what happens if you think someone is colluding" replies*

[ifm]

I think we should ask the camel and robs' for their input, they seem knowledgeable on the subject.

[Claw75]

I think its fine for someone who has no real chance of winning to say similar to what they might say on High Stakes Poker or Poker After Dark if its them to show first.
They often say "No Pair" or "one Pair - Fours" and if the opponent turns over better i think its perfectly fine for them to muck.

Similarily, if the player with the best hand is to turn first, the loser should be able to muck showing nothing at all.

But then you get the idiots dwelling, asking if 'one pair is good' (when there's a pair on the board), and then turning over one card, and the other player turning over the same card, so now the kickers need to be shown (and both cards need to be shown to win a showdown anyway), and it all takes too long and it's boring.

That's SO annoying! They faff about, whilst we all sing songs & whistle to amuse ourselves for 10 minutes.

I saw an really odd thing at Blackpool (in a Tourney) last month, & neither player did it intentionally, it was deffo NOT angle-shooting, or improper, but Simon Zach & The Cumbrian (I think) got tangled up. It was a Q high board, & neither was keen to show, they both waited for the other, quite reasonably, as it was clear they both had spanners. Simon said "Queen?" but Cumbrian thought he said "Queen" - (note the subtle difference) & Cumbrian, holding 2nd Pair, promptly mucked. Simon was still not keen to show - "do I have to, he Mucked?", but Cumbrian is keen to see, as he's entitled, I feel, & Simon turns over 5 or 6 high for a Busted straight draw! A classic poker moment.

Personally, I think both hands should be obliged to be tabled here. I don't see that as bad etiquette, not at all.

sounds like my reluctance to turn over my Jack high at equal chance when I didn't realise I'd hit a straight.  Felt terrible for the other woman in the pot who thought she'd won with her top pair.  I apologised embarrassedly.  Tikay spoke up for me though:  "I know Claire, she wouldn't do that on purpose..........she's not that clever"

[kinboshi]

Yes!

And the practice of trying to conceal one's hand at Showdown, in either Cash or Tourney, by waiting for the other to show & then mucking, should be deemed as unworthy conduct - almost everyone is doing it now, waiting for the other Player, & then quickly mucking.

Standards are dropping, & nobody cares, & folks get away with this antic 99 times out of 100. I'd have them Shot.

The "caller" Calls to SEE your Cards, &, win or lose, they have a right to see them, & thus, by default, BOTH sets of hands must be shown.

Getting all smart-arse & quickly mucking is as bad as farting in church.

Errrrrrrrrrmmmm, regardless of my thoughts on this, at DTD there is an order of showdown, last aggressive action shows first, in a check check situation however, left of the button shows first. At DTD no one has the right to ask to see the cards.
i.e. If you called to see, then the aggressor must show first, BUT if the caller turns his cards out of order and tables a winning hand, they forfeit the right to see the aggressors hand if the aggressor now mucks.

I am now going to hide behind a sofa 

Before I started at DTD, the rule I used was the caller could request. Some places used the anyone at the table could request (which I think is bollox btw)
DTD's rule on this actually makes sense to me now.

Like you said, it's not the same as elsewhere, but it makes sense.  Not saying it makes more or less sense than elsewhere, but it makes sense to me.

*Waits for the "what happens if you think someone is colluding" replies*

What happens though, if you think, for example, that someone is colluding?

[dik9]

What happens though, if you think, for example, that someone is colluding?

Call the TD

[M3boy]

Yes!

And the practice of trying to conceal one's hand at Showdown, in either Cash or Tourney, by waiting for the other to show & then mucking, should be deemed as unworthy conduct - almost everyone is doing it now, waiting for the other Player, & then quickly mucking.

Standards are dropping, & nobody cares, & folks get away with this antic 99 times out of 100. I'd have them Shot.

The "caller" Calls to SEE your Cards, &, win or lose, they have a right to see them, & thus, by default, BOTH sets of hands must be shown.

Getting all smart-arse & quickly mucking is as bad as farting in church.

Errrrrrrrrrmmmm, regardless of my thoughts on this, at DTD there is an order of showdown, last aggressive action shows first, in a check check situation however, left of the button shows first. At DTD no one has the right to ask to see the cards.
i.e. If you called to see, then the aggressor must show first, BUT if the caller turns his cards out of order and tables a winning hand, they forfeit the right to see the aggressors hand if the aggressor now mucks.

I am now going to hide behind a sofa 

Before I started at DTD, the rule I used was the caller could request. Some places used the anyone at the table could request (which I think is bollox btw)
DTD's rule on this actually makes sense to me now.

*Waits for the "what happens if you think someone is colluding" replies*

This is ok, but if after a minute they dont show their hand and they muck it, I then turn over the nuts then I am labled as "slowroller" which is wrong imo.

I like the rule if the DEALER turns over the cards that should be turned over first, therefore no arguments/no delays etc...

[77dave]

Trouble is, as I understand it, the ONLY person who can ask to see the hand is the other player in the pot.

If the other player in the pot asks to see the hand the dealer can turn the hand face up and it is still live. If another player at the table asks to see the hand as Ariston is saying the dealer should tap the muck with the hand so it is dead then flip it over.

[dik9]

This is ok, but if after a minute they dont show their hand and they muck it, I then turn over the nuts then I am labled as "slowroller" which is wrong imo.

If you had the nuts, wouldn't you be making the last aggressive action?

[Dingdell]

I think the dealers should be more proactive in all this. In some places they just sit there and the players not in the hand are shouting at the players in the hand to turn their hands over.  Dealers should be more interative and tell players to turn their hands over. It's sooo slow otherwise.

[kinboshi]

This is ok, but if after a minute they dont show their hand and they muck it, I then turn over the nuts then I am labled as "slowroller" which is wrong imo.

If you had the nuts, wouldn't you be making the last aggressive action?

Not if he's gone for a check-raise that hasn't quite gone according to plan.