Unreal!

[RED-DOG]

OK, Stand aside!! I'm here now.

[TightEnd]

ok, really going out soon then

er, FACT

[AndrewT]

I think part of the reason (problem to some?) is that there is no real 'English' identity.  The Scots/Welsh/Irish all have their own strong sense of identity (and on the flip side, stereotypes), but I don't really have a feel as to what 'Englishness' is (apart from that no one else likes us) and what I should therefore be proud of.  I'm guessing that's because I've grown up in an age where our country has become a melting pot - perhaps things were different in Tikay's day.  Not entirely sure about that though as the American's in particular seem to have a greater sense of patriotism than most, and a more mixed bag you couldn't find anywhere.  I'm talking twaddle now.

No Claire, I think you've got a point. Only recently has English Identity been different from British Identity (something that annoyed the hell out of the celtic nations). I welcomed the resurgence of the St George's cross as it showed that no longer was it the union jack, rule brittania which signified an English identity.

I don't think it's the melting pot thing - just that people have been a bit lost to find that British wasn't the same as English when the parliaments were created, England needs to re-establish her identity. A scottish sikh can wear a tartan turban and be one of the tartan army easilly enough - joining in with the national identity is easier for him, how does an english sikh make the same step?

This is where the problem is. A Sikh born in Cardiff may well call himself a Welsh Sikh, similarly one born in Glasgow could describe himself as a Scottish Sikh, but one born in England would be far more likely to call himself a British Sikh, not an English one.

People (both white and non-white) generally think of English = exclusively white, with British as the more inclusive term. Therefore, St George's Day is seen as something exclusively for white people, which is where a lot of the problems come from. Mostly from guilty middle-class white people, it has to be said.

[RED-DOG]

ok, really going out soon then

er, FACT

 

[Jon MW]

...  Not entirely sure about that though as the American's in particular seem to have a greater sense of patriotism than most, and a more mixed bag you couldn't find anywhere....

Although I don't agree with the full scale indoctrination you get in the States, the fact is that they have a strong sense of history (such that it is) and they teach it and celebrate it. This enables 3rd, 4th,5th generation immigrants reason and opportunity to feel proud of 'their' country.

[kinboshi]

British by birth, English by grace of god.




(I like that, even though I'm an atheist, and against nationalism, even though I feel patriotic, and don't know why)

[sledge13]

Liberals need a slap with a moist kipper!....the problem lies with immigrants who want to change the British way of life, ie laws etc and dont want to intergrate thus leading to extremism and then to the attacks we have seen in recent years in London and Glasgow. 1000s of Polish have moved to Selby where I am from and dont cause any bother as they have no problem with the way things are....

[I KNOW IT]

The trouble with any attempts to celebrate ones English heritage is this..

The St Georges cross (Flag of St George) was hijacked by racists and football hooligans and used very prominently in extreme right wing propaganda activities, we as a Nation have to take back the flag and not be afraid to display it.

Quite how we do this, I dont know, but the fact (or should that be FACT) is English people should not be afraid or embarrassed to show patriotism. It irks me that the Welsh, Irish and Scottish can happily celebrate their patron saints days in towns and cities across the world, yet the English cannot even celebrate in towns and cities in their own country.

Patriotism is too often seen as racism, and there in lies the English problem.

Also 1 of the reasons I decided I wanted to leave this country

[kinboshi]

Liberals need a slap with a moist kipper!....the problem lies with immigrants who want to change the British way of life, ie laws etc and dont want to intergrate thus leading to extremism and then to the attacks we have seen in recent years in London and Glasgow. 1000s of Polish have moved to Selby where I am from and dont cause any bother as they have no problem with the way things are....

You mean religion is the problem?

[sledge13]

Prob yeah...seems to be the cause of most wars and conflicts.

[Claw75]

the problem lies with immigrants who want to change the British way of life, ie laws etc and dont want to intergrate

you sound like that BNP leaflet I've been reading....

[sledge13]

Yeah? I will check out their Party Political Broadcasts on BBc1 and Itv then....

[Claw75]

Yeah? I will check out their Party Political Broadcasts on BBc1 and Itv then....

it's all on their website apparently.

[sledge13]

Yeah? I will check out their Party Political Broadcasts on BBc1 and Itv then....

it's all on their website apparently.

Yeah thanks...quite an interesting read...

[Geo the Sarge]

I think part of the reason (problem to some?) is that there is no real 'English' identity.  The Scots/Welsh/Irish all have their own strong sense of identity (and on the flip side, stereotypes), but I don't really have a feel as to what 'Englishness' is (apart from that no one else likes us) and what I should therefore be proud of.  I'm guessing that's because I've grown up in an age where our country has become a melting pot - perhaps things were different in Tikay's day.  Not entirely sure about that though as the American's in particular seem to have a greater sense of patriotism than most, and a more mixed bag you couldn't find anywhere.  I'm talking twaddle now.

No Claire, I think you've got a point. Only recently has English Identity been different from British Identity (something that annoyed the hell out of the celtic nations). I welcomed the resurgence of the St George's cross as it showed that no longer was it the union jack, rule brittania which signified an English identity.

I don't think it's the melting pot thing - just that people have been a bit lost to find that British wasn't the same as English when the parliaments were created, England needs to re-establish her identity. A scottish sikh can wear a tartan turban and be one of the tartan army easilly enough - joining in with the national identity is easier for him, how does an english sikh make the same step?

This is where the problem is. A Sikh born in Cardiff may well call himself a Welsh Sikh, similarly one born in Glasgow could describe himself as a Scottish Sikh, but one born in England would be far more likely to call himself a British Sikh, not an English one.

People (both white and non-white) generally think of English = exclusively white, with British as the more inclusive term. Therefore, St George's Day is seen as something exclusively for white people, which is where a lot of the problems come from. Mostly from guilty middle-class white people, it has to be said.

3 very good posts imo.

On a number of occaissions when working with the Americans I have actually been asked why a Scotsman was fighting for the British Army??

As to Americans and their patriotism. In my experience most times I got speaking to Americans they tended to introduce themselves as American/Irish - American/Italian - American/Scot etc. etc. I think I mentioned this before a while back on another thread.

I'd be happier if they just called themselves Americans.

Got to agree that the English should be re-asserting there identity and local councils need to stop all this PC crap. After all, other nationalities living in Britain are encouraged to celebrate their country of origins festivals, national and religious, so why shouldn't you guys.

Happy St George's when it comes anyway.

Geo