Middling Pairs in the Blind

[Longy]

To be pedantic and i know you are giving generic hypothetical situations. Reads are sooooooooo important in this spot, as they are in alot of cash.

Does our opponent raise alot, is it position based. Does he cbet alot, likely to fire a 2nd bullet with air.

If you want my default plan i would flat pre most of the time but not for hand value as well as set value. I would check/call the flop and reasses the turn, as if we are ahead oppo is drawing to less than 6 outs.

Reads are not important here, they are irrelevant. We have no information on the player.

Why are you check-calling the flop? Do you plan to lead out on the turn if it comes a blank?

This happened virtually like never when i last played cash, you really should always have a read of sorts. I play(ed) on a site that allows datamining and would do so extensively.

If you are finding this situation regularly you are not putting in enough effort to a get a read imo.

We are check calling the flop as we are not behind often enough to warrant folding and raising normally will fold out all worse and get called/raised by all better. Classic way ahead/way behind spot.

Either way, it's a hypothetical question. So, if you have no information on your opponent (new table, first hand, say), and you've called the flop, are you betting a blank on the turn, check-raising or checking intending to bet the river if he checks the turn behind?

Oh i understand that snoops as i said in my initial post, but i think for the benfits of the discussion, to aid our game. We have to deal in situations we actually find ourselves in at the tables, that is why hypotheticals in poker analysis are so poor compared to discussing actual hands in my experience.

[snoopy1239]

To be pedantic and i know you are giving generic hypothetical situations. Reads are sooooooooo important in this spot, as they are in alot of cash.

Does our opponent raise alot, is it position based. Does he cbet alot, likely to fire a 2nd bullet with air.

If you want my default plan i would flat pre most of the time but not for hand value as well as set value. I would check/call the flop and reasses the turn, as if we are ahead oppo is drawing to less than 6 outs.

Reads are not important here, they are irrelevant. We have no information on the player.

Why are you check-calling the flop? Do you plan to lead out on the turn if it comes a blank?

This happened virtually like never when i last played cash, you really should always have a read of sorts. I play(ed) on a site that allows datamining and would do so extensively.

If you are finding this situation regularly you are not putting in enough effort to a get a read imo.

We are check calling the flop as we are not behind often enough to warrant folding and raising normally will fold out all worse and get called/raised by all better. Classic way ahead/way behind spot.

Either way, it's a hypothetical question. So, if you have no information on your opponent (new table, first hand, say), and you've called the flop, are you betting a blank on the turn, check-raising or checking intending to bet the river if he checks the turn behind?

Oh i understand that snoops as i said in my initial post, but i think for the benfits of the discussion, to aid our game. We have to deal in situations we actually find ourselves in at the tables, that is why hypotheticals in poker analysis are so poor compared to discussing actual hands in my experience.

It was an actual hand. I had no info on my opponent as I'd never come across him before and it was his opening round.

Let's say he has played an average amount of hands, not been busy, but not a nit either. When he's raised preflop, he's continue bet around 80% of the time. He's a good tight aggressive player who probably makes few mistakes, but hardly the next Brian Townsend.

What would you do given that player description?

[byronkincaid]

are you betting a blank on the turn, check-raising or checking intending to bet the river if he checks the turn behind?

why do you want to turn your hand into a bluff?

[snoopy1239]

are you betting a blank on the turn, check-raising or checking intending to bet the river if he checks the turn behind?

why do you want to turn your hand into a bluff?

How do you mean? Can you elaborate?

[AlexMartin]

are you betting a blank on the turn, check-raising or checking intending to bet the river if he checks the turn behind?

why do you want to turn your hand into a bluff?

How do you mean? Can you elaborate?

You have a pair of sevens snoop, a good hand. You check call because you think you have (and most of the time do) the best hand. So you check call the flop to get value from cbets. Your equity against overcards is very good. On the turn (dependant) you re-evaluate. Until you know your opponent its probably a default to fold to a double barrel because most tags will put you on a Q and not bluff further, they will check. But obv, if a brick comes and you know ur oppo can double barrel w air you call again, to get value form bluffs. It does put you in a lot of tricky spots, which is why you need a good reliable read and some sort of HUD. If a 10/7/1.7 double barrels me , its a fold a lot of the time, if a 32/24/3 does the same thing, its a call more often.

You are not checking to check raise the turn, because until you build up extensive history there really is no need to start merging your ranges between bluffs and monsters. You have a good hand, you just want to keep the pot small and get to showdown. If you check-raise, you are significantly over-repping your hand, therefore bluffing.

I believe thats what byron means by turning your hand into a bluff.

[UpTheMariners]

i would check call the flop, check to him on the turn most players wont fire a second barrel on a pure bluff.

[byronkincaid]

are you betting a blank on the turn, check-raising or checking intending to bet the river if he checks the turn behind?

why do you want to turn your hand into a bluff?

How do you mean? Can you elaborate?

You have a pair of sevens snoop, a good hand. You check call because you think you have (and most of the time do) the best hand. So you check call the flop to get value from cbets. Your equity against overcards is very good. On the turn (dependant) you re-evaluate. Until you know your opponent its probably a default to fold to a double barrel because most tags will put you on a Q and not bluff further, they will check. But obv, if a brick comes and you know ur oppo can double barrel w air you call again, to get value form bluffs. It does put you in a lot of tricky spots, which is why you need a good reliable read and some sort of HUD. If a 10/7/1.7 double barrels me , its a fold a lot of the time, if a 32/24/3 does the same thing, its a call more often.

You are not checking to check raise the turn, because until you build up extensive history there really is no need to start merging your ranges between bluffs and monsters. You have a good hand, you just want to keep the pot small and get to showdown. If you check-raise, you are significantly over-repping your hand, therefore bluffing.

I believe thats what byron means by turning your hand into a bluff.

yes,basic simple good poker that lucky lloyd explained 100 times but noone took any notice, you have a good hand bet for value, you have no hand bluff or fold, you have weakish hand with showdown value try to get to showdown cheaply.

so many hands posted on this forum that this is the answer to

[boldie]

To be pedantic and i know you are giving generic hypothetical situations. Reads are sooooooooo important in this spot, as they are in alot of cash.

Does our opponent raise alot, is it position based. Does he cbet alot, likely to fire a 2nd bullet with air.

If you want my default plan i would flat pre most of the time but not for hand value as well as set value. I would check/call the flop and reasses the turn, as if we are ahead oppo is drawing to less than 6 outs.

Reads are not important here, they are irrelevant. We have no information on the player.

Why are you check-calling the flop? Do you plan to lead out on the turn if it comes a blank?

I just had to highlight this part as I reckon it is one of the worst plays I see six handed.

Why when you call thinking you are ahead on the flop would you then lead out on a blank turn? Surely a blank means that you're still likely to be ahead? Why would you give your oppo a chance to fold a worse hand? why not give him another chance to stick a bet in when you think you're ahead?

[AlexMartin]

To be pedantic and i know you are giving generic hypothetical situations. Reads are sooooooooo important in this spot, as they are in alot of cash.

Does our opponent raise alot, is it position based. Does he cbet alot, likely to fire a 2nd bullet with air.

If you want my default plan i would flat pre most of the time but not for hand value as well as set value. I would check/call the flop and reasses the turn, as if we are ahead oppo is drawing to less than 6 outs.

Reads are not important here, they are irrelevant. We have no information on the player.

Why are you check-calling the flop? Do you plan to lead out on the turn if it comes a blank?

This happened virtually like never when i last played cash, you really should always have a read of sorts. I play(ed) on a site that allows datamining and would do so extensively.

If you are finding this situation regularly you are not putting in enough effort to a get a read imo.

We are check calling the flop as we are not behind often enough to warrant folding and raising normally will fold out all worse and get called/raised by all better. Classic way ahead/way behind spot.

Either way, it's a hypothetical question. So, if you have no information on your opponent (new table, first hand, say), and you've called the flop, are you betting a blank on the turn, check-raising or checking intending to bet the river if he checks the turn behind?

Oh i understand that snoops as i said in my initial post, but i think for the benfits of the discussion, to aid our game. We have to deal in situations we actually find ourselves in at the tables, that is why hypotheticals in poker analysis are so poor compared to discussing actual hands in my experience.

It was an actual hand. I had no info on my opponent as I'd never come across him before and it was his opening round.

Let's say he has played an average amount of hands, not been busy, but not a nit either. When he's raised preflop, he's continue bet around 80% of the time. He's a good tight aggressive player who probably makes few mistakes, but hardly the next Brian Townsend.

What would you do given that player description?

V this guy i start to check raise flops a lot of the time with 100% of my range. That aggression is too exploitable not to jump on.

[snoopy1239]

are you betting a blank on the turn, check-raising or checking intending to bet the river if he checks the turn behind?

why do you want to turn your hand into a bluff?

How do you mean? Can you elaborate?

You have a pair of sevens snoop, a good hand. You check call because you think you have (and most of the time do) the best hand. So you check call the flop to get value from cbets. Your equity against overcards is very good. On the turn (dependant) you re-evaluate. Until you know your opponent its probably a default to fold to a double barrel because most tags will put you on a Q and not bluff further, they will check. But obv, if a brick comes and you know ur oppo can double barrel w air you call again, to get value form bluffs. It does put you in a lot of tricky spots, which is why you need a good reliable read and some sort of HUD. If a 10/7/1.7 double barrels me , its a fold a lot of the time, if a 32/24/3 does the same thing, its a call more often.

You are not checking to check raise the turn, because until you build up extensive history there really is no need to start merging your ranges between bluffs and monsters. You have a good hand, you just want to keep the pot small and get to showdown. If you check-raise, you are significantly over-repping your hand, therefore bluffing.

I believe thats what byron means by turning your hand into a bluff.

Thx for that, interesting stuff. Just wondered what other people's experiences of these hands are as they tend to leave me in tricky out-of-position situations with a so so hand.

If have read this right, does this mean that, unless you know your player to be capable of firing again on a raggy turn with a bluff, that you check-call the flop and check the turn? In your experience, do overpairs slow down on the turn or do they nearly always fire out again?

What is your plan on a raggy river? A value bet or a check to induce a bluff? What if the river is a King or a Jack. Do you check-call? What about an Ace. Check fold?

[snoopy1239]

are you betting a blank on the turn, check-raising or checking intending to bet the river if he checks the turn behind?

why do you want to turn your hand into a bluff?

How do you mean? Can you elaborate?

You have a pair of sevens snoop, a good hand. You check call because you think you have (and most of the time do) the best hand. So you check call the flop to get value from cbets. Your equity against overcards is very good. On the turn (dependant) you re-evaluate. Until you know your opponent its probably a default to fold to a double barrel because most tags will put you on a Q and not bluff further, they will check. But obv, if a brick comes and you know ur oppo can double barrel w air you call again, to get value form bluffs. It does put you in a lot of tricky spots, which is why you need a good reliable read and some sort of HUD. If a 10/7/1.7 double barrels me , its a fold a lot of the time, if a 32/24/3 does the same thing, its a call more often.

You are not checking to check raise the turn, because until you build up extensive history there really is no need to start merging your ranges between bluffs and monsters. You have a good hand, you just want to keep the pot small and get to showdown. If you check-raise, you are significantly over-repping your hand, therefore bluffing.

I believe thats what byron means by turning your hand into a bluff.

yes,basic simple good poker that lucky lloyd explained 100 times but noone took any notice, you have a good hand bet for value, you have no hand bluff or fold, you have weakish hand with showdown value try to get to showdown cheaply.

so many hands posted on this forum that this is the answer to

Well, yes, that's true, but your last one is less cut and dry and, well, very vague. I'm just trying to work out if this is a +ve situation to reach the showdown on the river for what is going to be a $100+ pot.

ie. how cheap is cheaply?

[Sunday8pm]

6-handed 1/2 game, you have $200 in the small blind.

You call a standard $7 preflop raise from trap two of with a middling pocket pair, 7-7 say. Flop comes Q-5-2 rainbow.

What's your next move?

If you reach the turn and river, what are you plans there?

Would you reraise preflop? How much? What do you do on the board if you are called?

No information on opponent. He has similar stack.

No set no bet. Is as easy as that Snoops. Preflop is fine

[AlexMartin]

6-handed 1/2 game, you have $200 in the small blind.

You call a standard $7 preflop raise from trap two of with a middling pocket pair, 7-7 say. Flop comes Q-5-2 rainbow.

What's your next move?

If you reach the turn and river, what are you plans there?

Would you reraise preflop? How much? What do you do on the board if you are called?

No information on opponent. He has similar stack.

No set no bet. Is as easy as that Snoops. Preflop is fine

setmining a deffo a good play v a very tight oppo m8, but i dont think that cuts it anymore with the medium pps, you dont get paid enough for it to be +ev longterm imo.

[Sunday8pm]

Check raising is ok against the right player but it must be very selective. Calling flop i dont like as the old expression goes. 'You dont know where you stand'

[totalise]

what do you mean "if you reach the turn and river what are your plans there"? obviously it depends how you got to the turn/river!

generally if you are playing 77 like this and folding every time an overcard comes and putting chips in every time the board comes undercards, you are gonna lose money... sometimes play 77 like you would play AA, sometimes play AA like you would play 77, sometimes play 77 like you would play 67 suited, sometimes play AA like you would play 67 suited, sometimes play 67 suited like you would play AA. Its hard to beat people that do this, its easy to beat people that play 77, no set no bet.