NLHE £50 FO - Fold or shove?

[HOLDorFOLD]

First time posting on this board so pplease bear with me ;-)

Live game, final two tables, 7 players left on each table.  Final table seats 9, pays from 7th (although most times they take off the top two to cover buy-in for 8th and 9th).

Blinds  800/1600


SB - ME approx 6800 after posting SB
BB - approx 2k after posting BB
folds round to button (MateyBoy)

Button has about 9000, he looks over to BB and says how much have you got left and the BB mis-heard and said "All-in".  So we had a bit of a "Whooaaa you've acted out of turn" from table.

MateyBoy I have played before.  He takes an age to make a decision, usually raises standard 3xBB with anything but will fold to a re-raise unless he has A+ ANY kicker suited or not suited and any pair.

So, 3 of us left in hand, BB has had to go all in as acted out of turn, I KNOW mateyboy will match it which he did (so approx 6000 in pot before it gets to me).   I have AQos.
I decided to go all-in with my remaining 6800.  Matey boy insta calls flipping over A9 suited.  He gets a flush and ta ta for now from myself and SB (I came 13th).

Now, usully I dont get hang-ups about a hand after a tourny. I'll think about them etc but not dwell on them but THIS hand keeps bugging me.   It could be because it was the same guy who took me out last week when he called my all-in and turned over K 10 to my A J and he hit K on the river to get a pair.   

I keep thinking, bearing in my I knew how lucky  this guy seems to get should I have folded my small blind and waited for another situation.   My gut tells me I made the right move for me (being short stacked, FT approaching and a chance to double up etc) but for some reason this is the only hand Ive ever played that I can't shake and would be interested to see what you guys think  (it could be a case of I'm dwelling on it because it was the same guy, same luck, who took me out at exactly the same stage in previous tourny - which was again 13th).

Sigh.

Thanks for any advice

M

[AndrewT]

You did nothing wrong Michelle - it's an easy shove. No matter what button or BB does out of turn, it's a shove.

I keep thinking, bearing in my I knew how lucky  this guy seems to get should I have folded my small blind and waited for another situation.   

Do you think some players are luckier than others? If a player has been lucky in the past, do you expect this to continue into the future?

My gut tells me I made the right move for me (being short stacked, FT approaching and a chance to double up etc) but for some reason this is the only hand Ive ever played that I can't shake and would be interested to see what you guys think

Your gut is right. That feeling you can't shake is results-oriented hindsight. You must kill that feeling with a logic hammer.

[HOLDorFOLD]

You did nothing wrong Michelle - it's an easy shove. No matter what button or BB does out of turn, it's a shove.

I keep thinking, bearing in my I knew how lucky  this guy seems to get should I have folded my small blind and waited for another situation.   

Do you think some players are luckier than others? If a player has been lucky in the past, do you expect this to continue into the future?

My gut tells me I made the right move for me (being short stacked, FT approaching and a chance to double up etc) but for some reason this is the only hand Ive ever played that I can't shake and would be interested to see what you guys think

Your gut is right. That feeling you can't shake is results-oriented hindsight. You must kill that feeling with a logic hammer.

Very good point - I don't usually think like this at all when playing so couldn't understand WHY this hand/this guy was dwelling on my mind so much (enough to even post about it!)

Cheers Andrew - Logic hammer about to be used 

[DungBeetle]

You played the hand perfectly - you can't ask to be in much better shape AQ v A9. 

You can't think too much about a player being "lucky".  There are some guys at the club in london where I play who feel a certain player has the jinx over them, and it's got to the point where they actually misplay their hands now out of fear of getting outdrawn.  This guys luck will turn, and he certainly won't keep winning tournaments if he is happy to call all ins with Ace + ANY kicker.

[I Am Willis]

Play a fifty of these games then come back

[boldie]

To be honest I almost stopped reading after this

Blinds  800/1600 SB - ME approx 6800 after posting SB

.

To then find out you had AQ makes this a very easy shove.

My question is, why did you have less than 5 BBs? What happened in the previous rounds that meant you were this low?

[EvilPie]

To be honest I almost stopped reading after this

Blinds  800/1600 SB - ME approx 6800 after posting SB

.

To then find out you had AQ makes this a very easy shove.

My question is, why did you have less than 5 BBs? What happened in the previous rounds that meant you were this low?

Boldie has hit the nail smack on the head here. You shouldn't let yourself get this short.

Matey boy has to call you here with ATC as he has the right price. If you had shoved for 16k then he may have been able to fold. I doubt he would've folded A9 anyway but even if he'd had 78 suited he would've had the right price to call your 6800 and would still have hit his flush or maybe his 7 to make you really sick.

Try not to fall below 10 BBs. If you do then it's time to start getting aggressive and shoving everything in while people can still fold.

I used to be a grinder who would find himself blinded down to 2-3 BBs then the magic hand comes along AK, AQ, AJ so in they go. Unfortunately the BB has the right price to call and he hits with his 4 8 o and I'm off home.

Do it while you've still got a bit of a stack and only decent hands can call you. You can shove with ATC when it folds to you in mid to late position and you've got a good chance of it getting through and winning the blinds. If you get called by AK then it's time to outdraw them for a change.

GL

[snoopy1239]

I don't think it's that cut and dry. You can still nick the blinds with 6,800 - pot raise is 5,600. Also, she may not have had chance to get it in on prior round.

[boldie]

I don't think it's that cut and dry. You can still nick the blinds with 6,800 - pot raise is 5,600. Also, she may not have had chance to get it in on prior round.

True that's why I asked what happened the previous rounds.

[HOLDorFOLD]

To be honest I almost stopped reading after this

Blinds  800/1600 SB - ME approx 6800 after posting SB

.

To then find out you had AQ makes this a very easy shove.

My question is, why did you have less than 5 BBs? What happened in the previous rounds that meant you were this low?

Hi Boldie

Tbh - inexperience gets me into this position 75% of my games.  Been playing small stake MTTs online for 18 months on an irregular basis, been playing live for 3 month (11 games all at Luton plus Cardiff Bash and one sky poker live event).

On this particular game I was BB the hand before and folded as there had been a raise and a re-raise and I had something stupid like 53os. I had lost a huge pot the orbit previously when I folded on the river - I had pocket 8's, hit another 8 on flop, bet out and was called, bet out bigger on turn and was called, river bought a 3rd Club to the board and the way the guy bet out made me think he had hit the flush so i folded - turned out it was a correct read but it stupidly left me just over 10K.

I'm a tight passive player and playing live has finally given me the balls to actually bet out and raise (yet to do a re-raise lol).  I'm still finding my feet and although the buy-ins of the games i play are probably too big for a novice like me (£50 is the biggest I have played) I don't spend my money on anything else (I dont go out to pubs, hate clothes shopping etc) and this is my only passion.  When I can afford to lose I play, when I shouldn't be playing I don't etc.

In the 11 games I've played I've final tabled 3 times, been on last two tables 6 times and bombed out after an hour and a half the other two times.

I seem to be getting deep but going out at the same stage of a tourny. I start slowly observing, then get a couple of big pots that take me to just about average stack by level 4.  Then I seem to get this phsycological 'fear' of losing chips so seem to tighten up even more during the next 2 levels and then next thing I know I'm at fold or shove stage.  Its taken me 3 months to actually see this though as before i was just so happy to be getting as far as I was  (in my mind I was spending less than a rare night out, having fun and getting 4 hours odds worth of good fun, laughter and learning at the same time).   

After a discussion with a player at Luton, we analysed my game and it was pointed out to me that you should play to WIN not play to have fun (I know I know that's soooo obvious but to me I was enjoying every minute whether I cashed or not).   So, the next game (the game in question in OP) I decided to play loser than before, enter pots with raises and vary my game.  I won more pots than in previous games but still went out at same stage - but, I DID feel so much more satisfaction in the way i played in that game than in previous games.

Now for the flip side of the coin, I have seen so many players push when short stacked and bust out although they came onto the table chip heavy.   Then there's myself and a few other regulars that always seem to be nursing a short to average stack throughout the tournament that go on to FT or ITM consistently.

So, in answer to the less than 5 BB question - it's just pure and total novice play & inexperience where I managed to lose just over half my chip stack in that one hand in the previous orbit (and that was me trying to vary my play and enter pots with raises). Prior to that it had been tight play, picking up pots here and there. 

Oh, and last but not least - not being used to large stacks I'm finding them harder to handle than when I'm short stacked.  I know i should be putting pressure on other players when chipped up, and using my position, but as of yet actually DOING any of that - it's like I'm scared to lose the chips I've just won. 

What would you guys recommend in order for me to practice my varying of playing style???   The chap at Luton said I would be better off upper the level online so that I was playing against better players (the type you would get playing live at these levels) rather than the lower levels where you get calls left right and centre (does that make sense, I'm not expressing this well at all lol). 

Being new to live play I'm finding I'm still getting to grips with the little things, trying not to make a twat of myself at the table and generally being quite quiet.  I do still take ages to work out what peoples chip stacks are, keep counting mine out for some reason (instead of using them I dare say) and I confess that online I was starting to work out pot odds but I haven't been at live play!!  I'm still trying to count it all when more chips go in lol.   I'm not stupid, just very novicey at this stage and will get bolder (and quicker at calculating) with time.

Welcome any advice, objective criticsm and pointers - be as harsh as you need to be - plain ol talking works better

Cheers
M

[kinboshi]

Michelle, you seem to know exactly where you need to work on your game. 

You want to know how to accumulate chips rather than let yourself get to the point where you're getting it all-in (with a decent hand), but are often only a 60/40 favourite with your tournament life on the line - and so it's often the end of your tournament, especially as you might have to race more than a few times.

Your play in this hand was fine. 

[Geo the Sarge]

Hi Michelle,

Great opening post on the PHA board. I don't normally post on here but certanly read it and try to learn.

Too often the info given for these guys to analyse is scant and a lot of time is taken up askng for more info and TBH results in some negative replies (deservedly at times)........well done you.

Boldie's question was also very relevant and your reply was also excellent and covers a multitude of sins that others (including me) would be afraid to admit to and I think you will reap the benefits from their replies.

FWIW in that situ, definite correct play.

Just wanted to say good post.

geo

[TightEnd]

Good that you are thinking about how to improve in such detail

p.s beware of random donks in Luton giving you advice....For every Richard Prew esq (legendary tutor of tight passive newbies, as they are in his image) there is a Tom Myland.

 

[boldie]

Michelle, you seem to know exactly where you need to work on your game. 

You want to know how to accumulate chips rather than let yourself get to the point where you're getting it all-in (with a decent hand), but are often only a 60/40 favourite with your tournament life on the line - and so it's often the end of your tournament, especially as you might have to race more than a few times.

Your play in this hand was fine. 

+1..you seem to have thought about your game a lot...It took me ages to figure out how to play to win. I was the same as you, cashing every week but never winning the thing...only after a long time did I realise that this actually meant that I was losing money by not winning (I made a profit but just didn't win as often as I should and that meant I wasn't making as much as I should) The switch to a "play to win" game meant I didn't cash for a while but after a while the results finally came.
Don't be scared of losing chips by doing the right thing. If you make the right play and go broke that's just the way it is.

I am sure that if you keep thinking about your game the way you are now the results will inevitably come.

[EvilPie]

I don't think it's that cut and dry. You can still nick the blinds with 6,800 - pot raise is 5,600. Also, she may not have had chance to get it in on prior round.

Fair point but you're opening the range of big stack callers to include almost ATC. With 9200 in the pot the BB is struggling to get away from calling for 5200 if he's got 30k+ sat in front of him.

Going down to less than 5 big blinds you're not leaving yourself much space to find an unopened pot to get your chips in to. That means you need good cards or have to shove from early position which is unadvisable. If the blinds pass you again then you're in some serious trouble and a double up puts you pretty much back where you started.

Difficult situation and very much up to the individual to decide. Can't fault Snoopy's point but personally I'm getting them in a lot sooner.