Sky Poker Tour

[AndrewT]

To be honest, I'd imagine someone at Sky put the T&C about the shirt in there simply because it's the sort of T&C you get in these WSOP packages, without really giving it the level of thinking we have here.

Given the amount of money Sky have put into building their poker room, I doubt they'd have any trouble matching any offer one of their players might receive from Stars or Tilt, and it would undo a lot of their hard work if they were to suddenly get a lot of bad publicity for treating their player like a serf.

[tikay]

To be honest, I'd imagine someone at Sky put the T&C about the shirt in there simply because it's the sort of T&C you get in these WSOP packages, without really giving it the level of thinking we have here.

Given the amount of money Sky have put into building their poker room, I doubt they'd have any trouble matching any offer one of their players might receive from Stars or Tilt, and it would undo a lot of their hard work if they were to suddenly get a lot of bad publicity for treating their player like a serf.

No (first para) it was put in deliberately, I imagine, after last year's experience, when one of our players went very deep, & the shirt-hawking/money dangling was very evident.

As to Para 2, you are assuming Sky would not look after any of their players who went deep. That's incorrect, & I think it's a little unfair, & presumptous, to assume they'd treat one of their layers like a "serf", as you know I'd not associate myself with that sort of thing. But they would insist - absolutely insist - on "first dibs", quite rightly in my view.

Will Brewin made 118th last year, & got $40,000+ for his troubles. On top of which Sky Poker looked after him "suitably" in my, & Will's view, by rewarding him with a WSOP-E seat, & potentially more sponsorship. Will was delighted with his treatment by Sky, & remains a very big player on Sky Poker to this day - he tops our Leaderboard most months.

[AndrewT]

To be honest, I'd imagine someone at Sky put the T&C about the shirt in there simply because it's the sort of T&C you get in these WSOP packages, without really giving it the level of thinking we have here.

Given the amount of money Sky have put into building their poker room, I doubt they'd have any trouble matching any offer one of their players might receive from Stars or Tilt, and it would undo a lot of their hard work if they were to suddenly get a lot of bad publicity for treating their player like a serf.

No (first para) it was put in deliberately, I imagine, after last year's experience, when one of our players went very deep, & the shirt-hawking/money dangling was very evident.

As to Para 2, you are assuming Sky would not look after any of their players who went deep. That's incorrect, & I think it's a little unfair, & presumptous, to assume they'd treat one of their layers like a "serf", as you know I'd not associate myself with that sort of thing. But they would insist - absolutely insist - on "first dibs", quite rightly in my view.

Will Brewin made 118th last year, & got $40,000+ for his troubles. On top of which Sky Poker looked after him "suitably" in my, & Will's view, by rewarding him with a WSOP-E seat, & potentially more sponsorship. Will was delighted with his treatment by Sky, & remains a very big player on Sky Poker to this day - he tops our Leaderboard most months.

That's not what I said - you've misread. I'm not saying Sky would do that - I'm saying that they'd be idiots if they did, so they wouldn't.

[tikay]

...

It's very simple. By agreeing to abide by the T & C's - which you have to, to play the Site, you accept the T & C's. It's a Contract. And if you fail to fulfil a Contract, or break it, there are any number of legal remedies available.

Question for the legally minded.

Are terms and conditions of a competition a contract, enforceable by contract law?

And if they are legally a contract could they not fall foul of being deemed 'unfair' contracts?

I'm staggered the way poker players think sometimes.

Jon - turn that question on it's head.

If a Poker Site fail to deliver on it's T & C's - does not pay out the winners, or pay it's bills, for example - there'd be uproar. And quite rightly so, Sites are obliged to deliver on their promises & committments. It's part of the Terms & Conditions we agree to when we play on any given Site. (Poker Trillion excepted).

And this cuts both ways.

Nobody has to accept the T & C's of any site.  But if they do accept them (& they have to, to use the Site) they must accept them, just as much as the Site is obliged to deliver it's committments.

It's a two-way street, not a one-way street.

Do we really want to see sites wriggling out of them, as you are suggesting players might be able to?

why is this particular T & C there? because presumably having a sky shirt at the FT of the WSOP would be worth massive amounts of money to sky. we can tell roughly how much money, it's many millions for stars and FT. presumably it's not worth quite as much to sky as they can't accept american players but still must be a lot of money right?

so this T & C is saying not only will you not be able to cash in by wearing a stars shirt, we may make millions from you and we don't have to give you a penny. If this was a freeroll then fair enough. If the sat was juice free then perhaps fair enough.

If only 10 players play this sat then sky make £1000, if 19 players play they make £1900. Is that not enough? If I run a sat in my house and charge £100 to play and say the T & C is that you have to wear a shirt saying "Byron Pwns LDO" is that a fair contract? I won't make millions if that shirt gets on a particular TV show. Sky will.

When I asked this question yesterday it was something I was slightly interested in and hadn't really thought through. I had no intention of ranting about it. Having thought about it I think this T & C is very very unfair. It seems to be almost the opposite of APAT doesn't it? APAT add value. sky suck it out of you.

meh, whatever.

Thanks Byron.

As to the first 2 paras, please see my reply to Andrew. Nowhere does it say "we will not give you  penny", & last year's experience is proof that they did, & would. But they have a right  via the T & C's - to first dibs, or option, & I would imagine, & hope, they'd exercise it.

I'm not sure why anyone would assume a commercial organisation would deliberately act unreasonably in a high-profile matter, but both parties have the right to protect their interests, within the boundaries of the T & C's, which are a pre-requisite to enter the Promotion. Those that don't agree with the T & C's should not enter.

Your last para, well, let's just agree to differ. I know, have proof, & have stated, that Sky Poker delivered added value last year, & I thought that added-value, to which they had no obligation whatsoever, was more than fair.

Sky Poker is a full-on Commercial organisation, & APAT is a Poker Association, so they have different objectives. I'm 100% satisfied that I can fulful both roles with no qualms as to how they treat players. In fact, I'm proud to be asociated with both, because I know they treat their Members/Clients well.

The bottom line is that nobody is obliged to be a Member/Client of either, but if they do, then they have to accept the rules/T & C's. Anyone who thinks they are unfair can exercise their right not to become involved. I hope this does not come across as rude, or abrupt, but it's the bottom line, & I know you can handle straight talking.

Or, put another way, & tom psaraphrase yopu- "meh, whatever".

Thanks for an interesting exchange of views, I have much enjoyed it.

Now, can we get back to enjoying our hobby - poker?

[tikay]

To be honest, I'd imagine someone at Sky put the T&C about the shirt in there simply because it's the sort of T&C you get in these WSOP packages, without really giving it the level of thinking we have here.

Given the amount of money Sky have put into building their poker room, I doubt they'd have any trouble matching any offer one of their players might receive from Stars or Tilt, and it would undo a lot of their hard work if they were to suddenly get a lot of bad publicity for treating their player like a serf.

No (first para) it was put in deliberately, I imagine, after last year's experience, when one of our players went very deep, & the shirt-hawking/money dangling was very evident.

As to Para 2, you are assuming Sky would not look after any of their players who went deep. That's incorrect, & I think it's a little unfair, & presumptous, to assume they'd treat one of their layers like a "serf", as you know I'd not associate myself with that sort of thing. But they would insist - absolutely insist - on "first dibs", quite rightly in my view.

Will Brewin made 118th last year, & got $40,000+ for his troubles. On top of which Sky Poker looked after him "suitably" in my, & Will's view, by rewarding him with a WSOP-E seat, & potentially more sponsorship. Will was delighted with his treatment by Sky, & remains a very big player on Sky Poker to this day - he tops our Leaderboard most months.

That's not what I said - you've misread. I'm not saying Sky would do that - I'm saying that they'd be idiots if they did, so they wouldn't.

Oh, I see - you are right, I misread your Post, & the intentions behind it. My apologies.

And you are, of course, absolutely right.

Still, it enabled me to slide a little spam in, eh?

[I KNOW IT]

To be honest, I'd imagine someone at Sky put the T&C about the shirt in there simply because it's the sort of T&C you get in these WSOP packages, without really giving it the level of thinking we have here.

Given the amount of money Sky have put into building their poker room, I doubt they'd have any trouble matching any offer one of their players might receive from Stars or Tilt, and it would undo a lot of their hard work if they were to suddenly get a lot of bad publicity for treating their player like a serf.

Will Brewin made 118th last year, & got $40,000+ for his troubles. On top of which Sky Poker looked after him "suitably" in my, & Will's view, by rewarding him with a WSOP-E seat, & potentially more sponsorship. Will was delighted with his treatment by Sky, & remains a very big player on Sky Poker to this day - he tops our Leaderboard most months.

 

[George2Loose]

So u don't have to qualify for the live final? u can just buy in directly at DTD?

You can buy-in directly, as of now, if you wish.

I'm not sure if you can buy-in at DTD though - you can certainly buy-in via Sky Poker, & have been able to do so for some weeks now.

If seats remain available nearer the time, it's possible - just possible - that a Live Super-Sat may take place at DTD, but don't bank on that, as I think all the Seats will go quite fast.

If you want to be sure of a Seat, qualify now, on Sky Poker, (the qualifiers would be right up your street George), or buy-in via Sky Poker.

I hope you play the Event George - the structure looks excellent, & well-suited to your game.

The TV Cameras will be there all weekend too - & if I get to interview you, I will HAVE to ask one question - "so Rup, you have children, yes, so what are their names?".....

Very likely I will be playing this Tikay.

And I get asked that question a LOT- I wonder why...... 

[AndrewT]

To be honest, I'd imagine someone at Sky put the T&C about the shirt in there simply because it's the sort of T&C you get in these WSOP packages, without really giving it the level of thinking we have here.

Given the amount of money Sky have put into building their poker room, I doubt they'd have any trouble matching any offer one of their players might receive from Stars or Tilt, and it would undo a lot of their hard work if they were to suddenly get a lot of bad publicity for treating their player like a serf.

No (first para) it was put in deliberately, I imagine, after last year's experience, when one of our players went very deep, & the shirt-hawking/money dangling was very evident.

As to Para 2, you are assuming Sky would not look after any of their players who went deep. That's incorrect, & I think it's a little unfair, & presumptous, to assume they'd treat one of their layers like a "serf", as you know I'd not associate myself with that sort of thing. But they would insist - absolutely insist - on "first dibs", quite rightly in my view.

Will Brewin made 118th last year, & got $40,000+ for his troubles. On top of which Sky Poker looked after him "suitably" in my, & Will's view, by rewarding him with a WSOP-E seat, & potentially more sponsorship. Will was delighted with his treatment by Sky, & remains a very big player on Sky Poker to this day - he tops our Leaderboard most months.

That's not what I said - you've misread. I'm not saying Sky would do that - I'm saying that they'd be idiots if they did, so they wouldn't.

Oh, I see - you are right, I misread your Post, & the intentions behind it. My apologies.

And you are, of course, absolutely right.

Still, it enabled me to slide a little spam in, eh?

A player in the WSOP has a small, though non-zero marketing value. Sky and the player may well decide that a fair market price for this is 'a couple of meals, drinks, meeting Tikay etc' in which case everyone is happy. If the player makes the money and gets to the later stages, they gain considerably more marketing value. We may all have every confidence that, once again, Sky and the player will agree on a fair market price for this extra value (WSOP-E seat/whatever). Again, everyone is happy.

However, given this, why do Sky feel the need to put in a clause in their T&Cs which essentially states 'we reserve the right to set the fair market price for this added marketing value at zero and force the player to agree in advance'?

If Pokerstars had come along and offered your guy last year a WSOP-E seat and seat in next year's WSOP as well, then wouldn't Sky be shortchanging the player by not offering him this as well? A player is surely entitled to maximise the value of something he has (his marketing appeal in the WSOP). As a company with shareholders, Sky is obliged to do this at every turn. Trying to prevent the player from doing the same just seems a bit off to me.

[tikay]

To be honest, I'd imagine someone at Sky put the T&C about the shirt in there simply because it's the sort of T&C you get in these WSOP packages, without really giving it the level of thinking we have here.

Given the amount of money Sky have put into building their poker room, I doubt they'd have any trouble matching any offer one of their players might receive from Stars or Tilt, and it would undo a lot of their hard work if they were to suddenly get a lot of bad publicity for treating their player like a serf.

No (first para) it was put in deliberately, I imagine, after last year's experience, when one of our players went very deep, & the shirt-hawking/money dangling was very evident.

As to Para 2, you are assuming Sky would not look after any of their players who went deep. That's incorrect, & I think it's a little unfair, & presumptous, to assume they'd treat one of their layers like a "serf", as you know I'd not associate myself with that sort of thing. But they would insist - absolutely insist - on "first dibs", quite rightly in my view.

Will Brewin made 118th last year, & got $40,000+ for his troubles. On top of which Sky Poker looked after him "suitably" in my, & Will's view, by rewarding him with a WSOP-E seat, & potentially more sponsorship. Will was delighted with his treatment by Sky, & remains a very big player on Sky Poker to this day - he tops our Leaderboard most months.

That's not what I said - you've misread. I'm not saying Sky would do that - I'm saying that they'd be idiots if they did, so they wouldn't.

Oh, I see - you are right, I misread your Post, & the intentions behind it. My apologies.

And you are, of course, absolutely right.

Still, it enabled me to slide a little spam in, eh?

A player in the WSOP has a small, though non-zero marketing value. Sky and the player may well decide that a fair market price for this is 'a couple of meals, drinks, meeting Tikay etc' in which case everyone is happy. If the player makes the money and gets to the later stages, they gain considerably more marketing value. We may all have every confidence that, once again, Sky and the player will agree on a fair market price for this extra value (WSOP-E seat/whatever). Again, everyone is happy.

However, given this, why do Sky feel the need to put in a clause in their T&Cs which essentially states 'we reserve the right to set the fair market price for this added marketing value at zero and force the player to agree in advance'?

If Pokerstars had come along and offered your guy last year a WSOP-E seat and seat in next year's WSOP as well, then wouldn't Sky be shortchanging the player by not offering him this as well? A player is surely entitled to maximise the value of something he has (his marketing appeal in the WSOP). As a company with shareholders, Sky is obliged to do this at every turn. Trying to prevent the player from doing the same just seems a bit off to me.

But they did not, & I don't think they would, for 118th place. We did.

Nobody is going to be short changed by Sky Poker, but they are entitled to reserve their position.

Many Sites will have this rider in their T & C's this year. Many will have wished they did last year, too.

Everyone will be made aware - 100% aware - of the situation BEFORE they go. So they have a clear choice. Accept the T & C's, & whatever bonus may be sitting therein (see Will Brewin), or don't. Nobody will be short-changed.

[cia260895]

On the Sky poker website it states

 "The Fifth leg of the Sky Poker UK Tour is a £5000 GTD tournament at the Aspers, Swansea on Sat 09th May 2009. The max number of players is 128 with entry restricted to satellite winners only."

Am i wrong in thinking that there are 140 runners at these events?

[amcgrath1uk]

On the Sky Poker website it states

 "The Fifth leg of the Sky Poker UK Tour is a £5000 GTD tournament at the Aspers, Swansea on Sat 09th May 2009. The max number of players is 128 with entry restricted to satellite winners only."

Am i wrong in thinking that there are 140 runners at these events?

They probably don't have any more room..

[cia260895]

On the Sky Poker website it states

 "The Fifth leg of the Sky Poker UK Tour is a £5000 GTD tournament at the Aspers, Swansea on Sat 09th May 2009. The max number of players is 128 with entry restricted to satellite winners only."

Am i wrong in thinking that there are 140 runners at these events?

They probably don't have any more room..

oooo just seen this on their website should be a squeeze,

"100 seat capacity Poker Room - with dedicated trained dealers"

[tikay]

On the Sky Poker website it states

 "The Fifth leg of the Sky Poker UK Tour is a £5000 GTD tournament at the Aspers, Swansea on Sat 09th May 2009. The max number of players is 128 with entry restricted to satellite winners only."

Am i wrong in thinking that there are 140 runners at these events?

Capacity is Venue depndent. If they can take 200, we book 200 seats, if they can only accept 128, that's all we can send.

We've had to "squeeze" Aspers Swansea a bit to get 128 in, but it'll be OK. If Aspers Swansea run the Event as well as Aspers Newcastle did, it will all run very smoothly.

[Dingdell]

On the Sky Poker website it states

 "The Fifth leg of the Sky Poker UK Tour is a £5000 GTD tournament at the Aspers, Swansea on Sat 09th May 2009. The max number of players is 128 with entry restricted to satellite winners only."

Am i wrong in thinking that there are 140 runners at these events?

Capacity is Venue depndent. If they can take 200, we book 200 seats, if they can only accept 128, that's all we can send.

We've had to "squeeze" Aspers Swansea a bit to get 128 in, but it'll be OK. If Aspers Swansea run the Event as well as Aspers Newcastle did, it will all run very smoothly.

Is that in the terms and conditions? I can't see it anywhere.

[tikay]

After all the T & C hoohah on this thread about the Viva Las Vegas Promotion, where I got a bit bashed up, anyone with an iota of sense would not mention any more Sky-Poker WSOP stuff......

So, Sky Poker have now announced a further "Mini-Vegas" package.

Paid entry into WSOP $1500 NLH tournament, to be run over 2 days on the 29th June 2009 in Las Vegas , Nevada , USA .

Flights for 2 people.

Hotel accommodation for 14 days.
 
Satellites will commence on Sky Poker on 30th March, with two monthly finals on 24th April and 29th May.

Cheap & cheerful!

I don't have ANY other details to hand, but will advise when I do.

But I do know that if you sign up to Sky Poker via blonde, blonde get a bit of financial benefit.

So, if you are interested in this Mini-Vegas package, & don't have a Sky Poker Account, please sign up via th link on blonde.

Thanks.