"Dusk till Dawn" Poker Club In Nottingham Diary (by Rob Yong)

[jezza777]

You can be asked to leave if they dont like you. 

[RED-DOG]

You can be asked to leave if they dont like you. 

But they can't say its because they don't like you

[jezza777]

They can if they have an alcohol licence. I do it all the time.

[robyong]

We have now instructed 3 fit out contacting firms to come up with their best design and ball park costings for the refurbishment. After the visit to the casino exibition we should now be able to to begin negotiating on prices for the card room fixtures such as chips and tables. This mean at the end of February we should have a more accurate "total pre opening investment" cost broken down into:

1. Pre-Opening Expenses (wages, licencing, professional fees etc) - estimate £250k
2. Fit Out (3 bars, restuarant, flooring, ceilings, heating system etc) - estimate £850k
3. Accoustics (TV Studio, Tv's, projectors, sound systems, lighting etc) - estimate £100K
4. IT (networking, internet etc) - estimate £150k
5. Card Room (tables, chips, etc) - estimate £150k

Total current estimate = £1.5m (needs to be negotiated down and is well over my original costing, but is in line with similar ventures of this scale).

On the upside we have had enquires from various parties regarding holding tournamants at the club, a company in London asking about using the TV room, and many many applications for membership. There is a definate buzz about the place opening and 99% of people are being supportive, even the Shrew seems to have cheered up recently. Nowab is enthusiatic as ever and Pete is pleased that he is getting more involved with the team. Nightfly seems to be recovering well although we're locked in an argument over freezout V rebuys. The professional poker player "Club Poker Host" is really fired up aswell (I should be able to announce the name later on this week, although I'd be surprised if most of you have not guessed his identity after a recent announcement). Most of the "project team" recruitment is now done, and I do hope that I can establish a mutually beneficial way forward between DTD & Blondepoker over the coming months. Blondepoker have been very good to me allowing me to PR my club for free on their site.

A common question that I am asked is "why are you so sure you will get the gaming licence, how can you commit to all of this without one?". Well, I have to get one, cause I'm financially committed, but I am taking a calcuated risk to avoid slowing the process down. Of course, it will be a huge kick in the teeth if we get turned down, but I do have a plan B just in case.

Stilll can't decided on a logo for DTD though, I've been through hundreds of examples a a few grand on designers, but nothing grabs me yet. I want something that looks good on a web site, signage and clothing. Maybe I shoudn't be so fussy at my age, I remember when I first did sf groups logo, I changed it 6 times in the first year.



Thanks for all the PM's offering help, I'm just trying to teach myselff Microsoft Project (Rod!).

Cheers Rob

[ifm]

The professional poker player "Club Poker Host" is really fired up aswell (I should be able to announce the name later on this week, although I'd be surprised if most of you have not guessed his identity after a recent announcement).

OOO, OOO, i know, i know!!!

[RED-DOG]

Logo should be a poker player, at a table in silhouette, with the sun on one side, and a crescent moon on the other

[The Nomad]

Hi  Rob ,nice to read how its going.I think you better get used to being shown the door until you get your gaming liscence. Did you get a good price for chips at the fair.    your man Dik9 seems to think I am an idiot I was not joking tell him to go to Card player magazine this last month   there is an article by shullman about these chips. I am amazed that a casino manager in the UK is not up to speed on all the latest gaming developments. Well perhaps not they are to busy with other things      having  dinner  screaming at dealers  schmoozing AAAs oh and covering their posteriors.    I seem to be getting conflicting messages in your diary,I saw the pictures of you in glasgow it looks like you had a good time very nice suit  Armani was it. I dont know who thoese other scruffy people were but I dont think I will be bringing  any business people I need to impress.     So have you decided on the way to go on this thing.This I think is something you will have to give a lot of thought to. The drift I got from Glasgow was they were thinking of making the games larger for economic reasons theres no problem there but it will reduce the amount of players Mainly the young students, these are the big hitters of the future.   The way  you solve this problem will be the make or break I think and you cannot give it enough thought, the rest is just detail.LoL                                                                                                                                                                                  

[dik9]

I don't think you are an idiot and I never said you were. The Chips in question are about, but what I said was that they would not be allowed in this country and I have never seen them in use in this country, and I have worked in many casino's.
As it happened I was at the casino exhibition, and witnessed their capacity. Fantastic to watch, but as said they were for the foreign market not UK.

50p per chip is about right for a quality heavy chip (minus RFID) so god knows what the tracker chips are worth?

[robyong]

thanks for all advice Nomad, students will be catered for, as will all bankrolls and sectors of the poker community. Dik9 is not that bad............and he does know his stuff!

[snoopy1239]

I think a logo is really important.

It's worth getting right.

[robyong]

It was really dissapointing to hear another Card Club, The Cavendish, is being procecuted. When I met with the Gaming Board they did tell me that they will shut every single card club down that falls within UK laws so I shouldn't be surprised. However, I do believe that by 2009 (after the 2007 gaming review), there will be new laws for Card Clubs which make it practical for them to run at a modest profit whilst not operating illegally. Unfortnately these laws will not come soon enough for DTD. In real terms these are the rough costs of being legal in the UK:

1. £100,000 in legal and application fees to get a licence (lining the lawyers pockets) plus £10,000 every year "licence renewal"
2. Employ a "compliance officer" to check that a club runs lawfully - say £35,000 per annum
3. Have a casino grey licence holder (who may know bugger all about poker) for every hour the club is open for gaming - say £100,000 per annum
4. Security cameras, procedures etc - say £100,000 investment and £10,000 per annum to maintain.

This just screws any club owner who does not have roulette and blackjack in their card room. Personally, I believe the reasons are more sinister than the "we want poker to be safe for the public so it should be regulated by casinos" excuse. I honestly believe that the casino groups are lobbying the get all these clubs shut down for 2 reasons:

1. If people go to poker only clubs they will lose revenue from their table games (ie. % disposable income on casino games decreases)

2. In the past players have started playing casino games, and then fell into poker when they have noticed the card room, now poker is getting so big that the casino groups see an opportunity to get more customers on their table games by attracting poker only players into their casinos and hoping that these players then "fall into table games" when they are in their environment. Poker can create NEW customers for the casinos on their tables.

Anyway, its all corrupt where big money is involved I'm afraid. There have been many times in my business career when I have seen bribery and corruption in places that it should not be expected exist. However, my club just has to be done by the rule book or I leave myself and everyone involved exposed to these forces that we cannot see, but do exist.

This is my view how the poker economy should work:

1. People starting playing poker lose money to experienced players for the first few years, therefore ensuring that people can make a living as a professional poker player, ONLINE or LIVE.

2. As these beginners improve, they then win money from the new set of beginners, becoming proftable players, and so on and so on.

3. Companies (TV businesses, Poker related businesses, advertisers) who want publicity from Poker to increase their profits should add money to tournament prize pools or subsidise the costs of holding the tournamant, therefore giving players more value. As you become better your entry fee gives you even more value as well.

4. Card Rooms and Online sites are a FACILITY for this process to happen, and should be allowed to make profits to maintain their facility and quality of service, and a modest profit, say 10% per annum, for the owners, who have invested / risked they capital in the company.

5. Payout stuctures should be revised for tournmamants to prevent too many people going broke and keep the money in the poker economy and prevent too much money going out of it (ie. one person willing £250,000 - he or she may never put this back into the community).

6. Poker staff should be able to get tips and earn wages comesurate with their responsibilies. The do a harder job than casino dealers.

In the long term, this will happen, as market forces always reach equilibrium. however, until then we have:

1. Companies ripping off players for the dream of being on TV

2. Casinos pretending they are poker friendly to get you to lose your shirt on their table games.

3. Money going out of the game due to top heavy structures.

4. The Gaming Commison (without knowing it) acting as secret police for the big greedy casino groups.

5. Genuine poker lovers unable to afford to run their card rooms (even just for friends) under current legislation.

6. Card Room staff being treated the same as Casino staff.


Cheers, Rob "Conspiracy Theory" Yong

[rivered]

Nice chat Rob, I couldn't agree with you more and I don't think it's a conspiracy theory at all.  However, I'm not so sure things will become as green as we hope due to the power the large casino groups exert.  They're consolidating and getting stronger all the time.  It's such a shame because I'd love there to be a 'cafe culture' for poker, where you can roll up to a small bar / pub, have a beer and a nice friendly game..... and of course have the larger facilities for the bigger stakes and tourneys.... we can dream...

[robyong]

Well, it looks like my short relationship with the nicest decked out casino in the UK is over. One of the guys who I got asked to leave with called my today as said he had a letter saying that he was "no longer welcome as a member or guest".

There was no letter in my mailbox so I phoned up to see if I was barred aswell, but they would not tell me, after keeping me waiting for 10 minutes, they said "I had to come to the casino in person to check". I'll take that as a "yes" then. If people are barred just for being with me, then I guess they must have barred the no 1 suspect.

I'm being really nice on the outside but inside I am pissed off, I spent over £1000 on food and drink in the Boardway at the Blondebash, and even made the effort to go and tell the manager this was the most fantastic casino I'd been in. I've been singing the praises of the place in the card room and the staff to anyone who will listen, and they made me feel like something on the bottom of their shoe, typical.

This does however raise the subject of casino employees and card club owners coming to DTD. The law is that I can let them in but they would need permission from their organisation to cover themselves, not me or DTD. Wouldn't it be great if we could hold a "casino dealers / staff" poker tournament in DTD, and Gala, Grovesner, Stanleys and the rest of them let their staff play in it. What halm would it do?

Something tells me that this will not be allowed, but I'd love to do it. On the circuit we've had some great laughs with casino staff playing heads-up back at the hotel and having a few beers, a lot of them love poker, but I know this is actually not permitted either. At DTD, I will welcome any person connected with a card club or casino with open arms and but them a beer.

Well, I guess I had better not let my feelings get hurt too much, I love playing the UK circuit and I really hope that Grovesner dont barr me (plus anyone connected with me) from playing their festivals. I was hoping that I would escape under the radar because we are only doing a poker club but alas, its not going to be so easy. This is why I got out of business in the first place a few years ago, you've got to watch your back 24hrs, there is always someone who doesn't like what you are doing.

Anyway, we had a long meeting to discuss our internet cafe today. We are going to have 50 internet terminals and use will be free of charge. We need to pick a poker room to go with who can run satelittes for the club etc. Everyone will have different opinions on this so I thought I would do a poll on Blondepoker before Simon Nowab approached the poker rooms and see if they can help us.

On another more positive note, Simon "Aces" Trumper will be joining the Dusk Till Dawn team when the club opens to be our "Poker Host". His role will be varied but mainly to ensure that we cater for the best interests of poker players in everything that we do. He will be advisng on payout structres, blind stuctures, the regular monthly tournamant schedule, major festivals - basically everything to do with live poker. He will also be helping beginners on a variety of poker subjects. Simon's role will be full time and he will be moving to Nottingham when the club opens.

I first spoke to Simon about this role before we even found the premises for the club, maybe over 9 months ago, and we have been in constant contact since. He was always been in a very strong negotiating position (although maybe did not realise it) as I only had a short list of 1! He agreed agreed to join before he parted company with UKbetting a couple of weeks ago, as his role won't really start till the end of the year, therefore there is no conflict with his 2006 sponsership.

So, Nottingham is going to be the home of Chubby and Aces very shortly, as their roles are both conditional on relocating nearby the the DTD club. I think most people will agree that Aces is a very good fit for what we need, I always said that I would recruit a professional poker play to ensure that we did things for the players - not for profit or convenience, and I don't think there are many more honest, friendly and approachable pros than Aces, he always makes time for the junior players on the circuit and always gets on with everyone (except Barry Greenstein).

Okay, gotta get some rest, I have put a poll on "What is the best Poker Room for DTD"

Cheers Rob

[BlueWolf]

Rob

Sorry to hear about your problem with the Broadway, first i knew about it was when i got your message. I'm still none the wiser as to the details. Its a pity it also leaves you unable to play in our upcoming festival. I'd also like to thankyou for your compliments regarding the casino and in particular the cardroom here (before last week) and i really appreciated your support. May i take this oppurtunity to wish you all the luck in the world with DTD and i hope to sample the club at the first chance i get.

In regards to allowing casino dealers into cardrooms, i know there was talk about it a while back with the upshoot of clubs like the gutshot etc and there seemed to be no answer, however as no licensed gaming employee can play at a licensed venue currently its a problem. On the continent there is an annual casino staff poker competition held each september that alas will never be held in the UK for these reasons. I was lucky to attend one a couple of years ago in Austria and it was a fantastic event (albeit limit poker) that attracted well over 600 runners, all of which were casino employees from all over europe. I'd love one to take place in the UK but until the current gaming legislations are dragged up to date its not likely its going to happen unfortunately. Oh well at least i can just about get away with attending the P4C events

All the best

Regards


Chris

[robyong]

no problem Bluewolf, it wont be the first I am sure. I would have probaly busted out after 30 mins and put my credit card behind the bar so I've probably saved a few quid. Rob