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Author Topic: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed!  (Read 4718 times)
Numpty Dumpty
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« on: January 30, 2009, 03:26:03 PM »

Hi all,

this is a post that a friend made on facebook (a few of you may have seen it before). I thought it was very interesting..what do u think?



"Hey everyone opinions are really welcome on the following...

Game is .5/£1 I just sat down 3 hand ago and effective stacks are £150.

UTG limps I open to £4 with  . Co calls and button pops to £12.
I call and co calls.

Flop is  .

I check, co checks, button bets £25, I raise to £75, co folds, button shoves, I obv call.

We both flip our cards and he shows  , since I don't have any money to reload at this
point I offer running it twice and he accepts. Now this is the new dealer dealt cash game
at Grosvenor and the dealer seems very confused about the whole situation. In like wtf
do u mean. So we attempt to explain running it twice but it bypasses his brain and he
calls the floor. They have no idea what we're talking about and whether they allow it
so I say well can u get the rule book out and have a look please. Everyone at the table is
like yeah just burn and turn twice u know and nobody cares bout the hold up to the game.
Anyway the floor stay there bemused and still don't know wtf is going on and then randomly
the dealer just deals turn and river (prolly out of some kind of frustration) and deals

three diamonds to give me my first ever live royal flush.

Then goes that's it hand is over and the floor agree that no more action is allowed
without any proper ruling.

So I get shipped the £300 pot with pretty mixed feeling. I do believe this might be the most
unhappy anyone has ever been winning a good pot with a royal.. but that's not the point, but still
kinda cool I guess Smiley

So the question is do I owe this guy any kind of equity. I don't feel I do and that was the general
feeling of the table except the man in the question. But I'm not totaly convinced and would like other
people's input on the matter. I feel if I was on the other end I would've let it go and not expected
anything cause it was the casino's ruling despite being a gay one. And he probably wouldn't have
accommodated me for similar reasons. I dunno, I'm stuck on it so if anyone can enlighten me it'd be very much appreciated. I mean the money is not a big deal at the end of the day cause it's not much but the actual value has no meaning obv as we all know and it's all EV really so let me know."
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 03:33:31 PM by Numpty Dumpty » Logged
Numpty Dumpty
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« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2009, 03:30:07 PM »

and this was my reply..


i think its fair to take 3/4 of the pot - the half that you won and 50% of the other run that didnt occur. you are well within your rights to take it all, and the vast majority of players certainly would, but i would feel bad (as i'm sure you did - otherwise the question wouldn't be here!)

still, dont feel bad for taking it all. if the situation was flipped i am 99% sure you would be out of pocket. maybe this is a pessimistic view on the situation, but i always feel too many people would happily rake in the entire pot here without even thinking.

the one thing this does show is a weakness in the performance of some dealers/card room staff. in my opinion the general standard in england is poor. This is a situation that is identifiable to all players, and therfore should be part of a dealer's training, and especially something that the card room staff should have a rapid answer for!
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kukushkin88
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« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2009, 03:35:49 PM »

I can't see that you owe him anything, the opportunity to run it twice almost certainly won't be addressed by Grosvenor rules so it's fair enough for them to say you can't do it. You don't owe him anything in terms of equity. Maybe offer him a flip for half of it next time. (only if you run really good at flips obv0
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« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2009, 03:37:40 PM »

Dealer dealt 50p/£1 game?
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Longines
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« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2009, 03:39:28 PM »

I'm pretty sure Grosvenor rules forbid running it twice, checking it down or any other artificial outcomes in cash games. It's definitely mentioned in the rules on display in Walsall and the Vic.
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StuartHopkin
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« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2009, 03:40:51 PM »

First question? Did i meet you at the weekend? I vaguley remember something! Was it you? Or was it your bro? MUST STOP DRINKING!

As for this, i think in the moment i would keep the lot, they obv dont have people running things twice so rules are rules and all that.

Sitting at a computer reading it I would like to think I would ask the casino if i could borrow a pack of cards for a minute, run it again on the floor of the casino next to the table they were playing on.
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Numpty Dumpty
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« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2009, 03:41:34 PM »

Dealer dealt 50p/£1 game?

they definately have them at DTD, guess they must do at one (or more) grosvenors too
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Numpty Dumpty
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« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2009, 03:43:45 PM »

First question? Did i meet you at the weekend? I vaguley remember something! Was it you? Or was it your bro? MUST STOP DRINKING!

As for this, i think in the moment i would keep the lot, they obv dont have people running things twice so rules are rules and all that.

Sitting at a computer reading it I would like to think I would ask the casino if i could borrow a pack of cards for a minute, run it again on the floor of the casino next to the table they were playing on.

yeah that was me mate, shared a taxi with u and matt (on saturday i think?). and owe u a drink seeing as u refused to take any money. next time at dtd

and yeah good point - much easier when u have had time to think, but in the moment so easy to just scoop
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 03:45:32 PM by Numpty Dumpty » Logged
thetank
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« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2009, 03:46:46 PM »

His equity for the other half of the pot is about £63

Buy the table £60 worth of sandwiches, tip the valet £3

This satisfies any moral responsibility you may feel you have, nobody can claim you gained from the dealer's actions, plus everybody gets sandwiches.

Easy game this poker.
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George2Loose
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« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2009, 03:54:40 PM »

once the ruling is made to run it once then you owe him nothing imo
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StuartHopkin
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« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2009, 03:57:44 PM »

First question? Did i meet you at the weekend? I vaguley remember something! Was it you? Or was it your bro? MUST STOP DRINKING!

As for this, i think in the moment i would keep the lot, they obv dont have people running things twice so rules are rules and all that.

Sitting at a computer reading it I would like to think I would ask the casino if i could borrow a pack of cards for a minute, run it again on the floor of the casino next to the table they were playing on.

yeah that was me mate, shared a taxi with u and matt (on saturday i think?). and owe u a drink seeing as u refused to take any money. next time at DTD

A drink sounds good  Grin
I was soooo drunk on Saturday, when I saw your post I had a little flashback!
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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2009, 04:05:52 PM »

Dealer dealt 50p/£1 game?

they definately have them at DTD, guess they must do at one (or more) grosvenors too

I've only seen 1/1 at Grosvenors, but I guess some might run .50/1.  Someone asked about running it twice at DTD, and were told categorically no.
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Numpty Dumpty
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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2009, 04:12:34 PM »

Dealer dealt 50p/£1 game?

they definately have them at DTD, guess they must do at one (or more) grosvenors too

I've only seen 1/1 at Grosvenors, but I guess some might run .50/1.  Someone asked about running it twice at DTD, and were told categorically no.

yeah i had one on 2-2 omaha at DTD where we both flopped nut straight with a single backdoor flush draw each. tried to chop but they didnt allow it. luckily neither of us hit...
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George2Loose
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« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2009, 04:19:35 PM »

Is there any reason why clubs don't allow this sort of practice- is it might make it easier for people to collude?
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« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2009, 04:51:40 PM »

if you feel at all bad - get a deck of cards - pull out 2 cards - if you miss - ship him 1/2 the pot?

You did nothing wrong - dealer should be taken outside and given a kicking for dealing whilst awaiting a ruling. I always find it brings it home to these idiots when you remind them that the
pot size is a weeks salary!



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