Strategy post - short stacked in the big blind

[thetank]

You have less than 2 big blinds in your stack and it is time to post the big blind.

We all know you've really gotta call a raise with any two cards and hope at least that you're live. Except, of course, in very specific bubble situations.

What can often be the case, if players are keen to eliminate you from the tournament, two or more may just call the big blind. Now what do you do? Many players think it doesn't really matter much. I think that attitude is wrong, everything matters in poker. Let's look at a situation where you have 2 big binds, have posted one of them and two players have called.

Yes, it's true you don't have enough chips to push anyone off a hand but you still need to think about what to do to get the most value from them. The answer is to push them in pre-flop. This is not pointless, of course everyone will call but that's what we want for maximum value.

If you checked and then put them in on the flop, a player acting after you might re-raise forcing another player to fold. You see what's happened. You're no longer getting 2-1 on your remaining chips. Just even money.

You'll probably need 2 more double-ups to get back in the game anyway. If you manage this then that extra bet you won in the big blind, has now become 4 extra bets.

This happened to me recently in an online sit n' go. I was in the big blind and popped my measly remaining amount of chips in after the cut-off and small blind just called. The cut-off made two pair on the flop and bet it, the other chap in the small blind folded. By the river I made a flush and won the pot. The extra money I made from the small blind before the flop (after doubling it up twice) made the difference between me finishing 2nd instead of 3rd in the tournament.

This might seem obvious to many but I thought I'd mention it as I recently saw someone, whom I consider to be a good player, neglect to do this in a live game.

[ifm]

I think i understand what you say though it doesn't matter how many people are i the pot if you ain't gonna win it.
I'll give an example of what i mean (and how i sometimes play in this situation).
Today actually i was in a tourny with 865 chips and the big blind was 600, there were 4 callers and i had J 7 off.
Flop comes something daft like K 3 A and one fella bets about half the pot and i decide as i have no draws at all there is no point calling so i fold.
I actually worked my chips up to around average before going out about half an hour later.
The point is, had i pushed preflop i would have been out.......sometimes it's better to be conservative.

 

[thetank]

Although your hand is poo and probably dominated left right and centre, the pre-flop pushing play here gives you a shot at 4325 chips. I understand what you're saying but that's a little too conservative for me.

To get 4325 chips from 265 you'll need 2 triple ups and a douple up. I'd prefer to take my chances with the J7o.

[ifm]

What puzzles me is when players put their last few chips in with hugely favourable pot odds when they are certain they are losing.
I've had people berate me online for folding when in this situation.

[thetank]

Another advantage of popping them in pre-flop. At least you're not certain you've got no chance.
So ones ability to fall asleep at night should not be adversely affected.

[Robert HM]

Why leave it until you are big blind?

Push all in UTG, you get to act first and it maybe that all will fold, including the blinds and you have more valuable chips in your stack. If you do get callers then you get better odds because of the greater number of chips in the pot, inccluding the BB who had no choice to put a in a bet in the first place. I have thought about this before and I think that is the better play.

[ifm]

My favourite move is to raise UTG.
You don't always get the oportunity though (what if you lost your chips UTG lol).
I don't like an allin move shortstacked, it's loose and you will get called!!!
I prefer a raise and hold something back (anything) it looks stronger than allin.
You say about getting callers for a bigger pot, WHY? you don't wanna go up against 3 or 4 peeps shortstacked, you wanna survive so you increase your odds of doing it by playing against LESS people.

[thetank]

You already did push UTG. You lost, but got 2 big blinds change from the pot.

Or you had only half a big blind UTG and just quadrupled through

The point is you find yourself in the BB with one BB or less remaining chippies.

[thetank]

You say about getting callers for a bigger pot, WHY? you don't wanna go up against 3 or 4 peeps shortstacked, you wanna survive so you increase your odds of doing it by playing against LESS people.

True, but when in the big blind with one big blind left, you don't have a choice how many people you will be in the pot against. If only one has called great, but sometimes 4 will and there's not much you can do about it so you might as well get the value.

[Robert HM]

You already did push UTG. You lost but got 2 big blinds change from the pot.

Change the goalposts why don't you!

[thetank]

Going back to that J7o hand.

Even if you are in a nasty situation where someone has a bigger jack and another has a pocket pair higher than 7's you will still win the 5-way pot around 9% of the time. (That figure was arrived at by using a simulator where all players would check it down to the river, the reality is that someone might be bet off the best hand occasionaly and so you'd expect the pot slightly more than 9% of the time)

The 265 chips you'd be left with is only 6% of what you could win from the 5-way pot, so I think having a crack at is the way to go. Especially as your Jack could even be live giving you around 18% chance.
A weighted average of the previous two situations (the following figure based on no mathematics whatsoever, just a judgement guesstimate kinda thing) of how often you'd be expecting the pot would be around 13-14%.




Out of interest, chances of having the following holdings with J7o after all 5 board cards have been dealt.

2 pair - 22.6% (Note:-this includes when the board pairs, two thirds of the time you'll still get beat here)

Trips - 4.4% (Note:-about half the time you'll still be beat)

Straight - 4.7% (Expect a more healthy 4 wins from 5 here)

Flush - 1.9% (Half are good, half are not)

Full House - 1.8% (Only one in 10 are bad news)

Quads - 0.1% (yay)

[ifm]

Love the quads
Are those odds based on a missed flop?
I was merely trying to say that with 2 BB's you can see 2 flops and therefore have 2 chances to improve.
The J7 scenario was a very rare case and was an example of ultra conservative play that can work.
There is no right or wrong of course, if i were in your original scenario i would check to see a flop and put my last BB in if i had ANY draw whatsoever or pair.
If it were raised preflop i would call 99% of the time with pretty much anything.

[thetank]

True, the odds are not based on a missed flop. They are supposed to support my theory that the push pre-flop is the right play.

If you check, miss the flop, no pair, no hint of any kind of draw and fold, true you are still alive.(Missing out on the 1% or so of the time that you would runner runner the pot, which I factor into the desicion in a very small way)

If you check, hit the flop and go on to win, you'll end up winning just over half of what the pot could have been had you pushed pre-flop. After two successful double ups (which you'll need to be in contention in the tournament) this adds up to a fair whack of chips.

The see the flop play is not for me. Anything over 1 big blind left and I would check and see the flop though.

With one big blind exactly (or thereabouts) your play is ok. (what with your last tournament chips being much more valuable than ones you could potentially win) I would still push though.

With less than a big blind left, the push pre-flop play is more clearly the way to go. IMHO

The play I witnessed that set this all off was when the big blind player had half a big blind left and there were 3 other callers. Would you have pushed there with J7o? (I think his hand was 72s, he went on to call with his last chip on the flop without even a gutshot draw)

[Ironside]

depends on the comp if its a sat i check fold and hope someone goes out in next round

if its a normal comp i push preflop as i am playing to win not just money

[vampitup]

A similar situation at Southampton last week in the Sunday Freezeout.

I was chipped up and made a button raise (3BB) with A3 suited.  BB is short stacked with about 9/10 BB.  He calls.

Flop came A45, he checked and I put him all in.  He passed, showing queens.

I said 'Why didn't you re raise all in pre flop', his reply was 'Well I was right not to because the Ace came!'. 

Fact is, if he had pushed pre flop, I would at least have thought about passing and if not he would have had a huge chance as favourite to double up with an excellent starting hand, thus selling his hand for the most amount, just like Tank says push them in pre flop and hope to get lucky.  If he had doubled up he would have been back in the comp.  If I had passed, he would have about 14 BB.