What do we do now - & why?

[George2Loose]

The Reveal - & then the supplementary........

I think everyone who Posted on the Thread should read their replies again, to see how near the mark you were.

The advice was terrific - to, & for, me - thank you - but most of you misread the situation, exactly as I did.

Marcus, who led out on the flop, after I checked, was holding the absolute cocoanuts - 

I re-raised him now, (probably mangling the amount, but the message was "I'm not Passing OK?), so Marcus went into the tank,  gave it considerable dwellage, & an Oscar-winning performance, before shoving all-in. I had pre-determined I would Call if he did, & I did, leaving myself down to 1,200 or so if I lost. At 50-100, that's a mountain of chips.

I take on board the good advice that as I thought my hand was the nuts, I should have led out on the Flop. Which was exactly what Marcus did, totally wrong-footing me in the process.  (And most of you, judging by the replies). In fact, it played the same either way.

1) I thought Marcus deserved credit for playing the hand well.

2) I met Greekstein just before the Tourney, & he told me how much the PHA had helped his game, & this seemed a good hand to provoke some debate, & it certainly gave me a few good tips. The replies suggested Marcus would have wrong-footed most of you, too. So can we do better? Can we find a Pass?

3) Most of you, in my spot, stack off here. (Judging by the replies).

But........

We don't HAVE to stack-off here - we don't. In fact, if Marcus had me covered, (he did not) I woulda played this hand totally differently. I would have let go quite early. Marcus knows I'm a nit, & when he re-raised me, I shoulda realised the score, knew he knew, so to speak. It was a bad play by me.

I know almost all of you will say/.have said, "no, we have to do our chips here" - but we don't.

Several said "it's a cooler" I disagree. We can win, or cash in, Tourneys, by Passing, just as well as by getting all gung-ho every time there is a confrontation. There are much, much, softer situations available later. Ego is a big -ev factor. "I'm Billy Big Dick, I'm not Passing" costs so many people their Tourney lives. We give up too way too easily, omo.

Online, when we are 8 tabling 2 buck MTT's, no, a clear "it is  what it is, bugger it, I'm all-in". In a one-shot, 184 runner, Live Tourney, with £10k to the winner, a good player - I can think of several - can get off this. And THAT would be a super Pass.

Late on, with, say, 8 to 15 x BB, yes, we are dead, we commit totally. Early doors, with 50 x BB, & a soft field, we can find a better spot.

I'm off out, before the deluge of mirth begins.

Given al the circumstances - espcially Marcus knowing my early-stage image, I pass this, & don't do more than about 1,500 - my Re-Raise to his Flop bet. If he persists, I go away.

PS - Down to 1,200, I gathered myself, (I really enjoy more than anything else an uphill battle, against the odds), stuck in, & was above average within 5 Levels, eventually losing a flip with 30 odd left. Extremely enjoyable, & satisfying.

Tikay you say it's not a cooler cos he obv knows your image but what do you think he does with:

1) A smaller flush

2) A flopped set

Do you think he's savvy enough to fold?

[Longy]

Tikay it is still a cooler and 50bb isn't paticularly deep, I believe it to be a mistake to ever fold in this spot unless it is some very weird bubble spot.

Marcus's play seems reasonable post flop, though the hand kind of plays itself. Do you think his preflop play is good, because i don't. Limping a5s utg with a 50bb stacks full handed is an error imo.

[byronkincaid]

The Reveal - & then the supplementary........

I think everyone who Posted on the Thread should read their replies again, to see how near the mark you were.

The advice was terrific - to, & for, me - thank you - but most of you misread the situation, exactly as I did.

Marcus, who led out on the flop, after I checked, was holding the absolute cocoanuts - 

I re-raised him now, (probably mangling the amount, but the message was "I'm not Passing OK?), so Marcus went into the tank,  gave it considerable dwellage, & an Oscar-winning performance, before shoving all-in. I had pre-determined I would Call if he did, & I did, leaving myself down to 1,200 or so if I lost. At 50-100, that's a mountain of chips.

I take on board the good advice that as I thought my hand was the nuts, I should have led out on the Flop. Which was exactly what Marcus did, totally wrong-footing me in the process.  (And most of you, judging by the replies). In fact, it played the same either way.

1) I thought Marcus deserved credit for playing the hand well.

2) I met Greekstein just before the Tourney, & he told me how much the PHA had helped his game, & this seemed a good hand to provoke some debate, & it certainly gave me a few good tips. The replies suggested Marcus would have wrong-footed most of you, too. So can we do better? Can we find a Pass?

3) Most of you, in my spot, stack off here. (Judging by the replies).

But........

We don't HAVE to stack-off here - we don't. In fact, if Marcus had me covered, (he did not) I woulda played this hand totally differently. I would have let go quite early. Marcus knows I'm a nit, & when he re-raised me, I shoulda realised the score, knew he knew, so to speak. It was a bad play by me.

I know almost all of you will say/.have said, "no, we have to do our chips here" - but we don't.

Several said "it's a cooler" I disagree. We can win, or cash in, Tourneys, by Passing, just as well as by getting all gung-ho every time there is a confrontation. There are much, much, softer situations available later. Ego is a big -ev factor. "I'm Billy Big Dick, I'm not Passing" costs so many people their Tourney lives. We give up too way too easily, omo.

Online, when we are 8 tabling 2 buck MTT's, no, a clear "it is  what it is, bugger it, I'm all-in". In a one-shot, 184 runner, Live Tourney, with £10k to the winner, a good player - I can think of several - can get off this. And THAT would be a super Pass.

Late on, with, say, 8 to 15 x BB, yes, we are dead, we commit totally. Early doors, with 50 x BB, & a soft field, we can find a better spot.

I'm off out, before the deluge of mirth begins.

Given al the circumstances - espcially Marcus knowing my early-stage image, I pass this, & don't do more than about 1,500 - my Re-Raise to his Flop bet. If he persists, I go away.

PS - Down to 1,200, I gathered myself, (I really enjoy more than anything else an uphill battle, against the odds), stuck in, & was above average within 5 Levels, eventually losing a flip with 30 odd left. Extremely enjoyable, & satisfying.

http://www.tworags.com/blog/bond18/post/1259/things_it_took_me_a_while_to_learn_part_6_strategy_and_mentality_lies

[MANTIS01]

Firstly I love the fact that needa referred to one of your oppos as pig man...even if it should have been pig woman..or indeed pig girl.

More importantly, I don't agree with your assessment of the hand Tikay....especially this phrasing..."I'm Billy Big Dick, I'm not Passing"...because it's never about ego for many of us, it's about what's right. I see so many tournament players allow their stack to dribble away to uncompetitive oblivion, and that's a sure fire way to lose your best chance to win. In order to live you must be prepared to die, and whilst some of the time you can be fully aware you could be beat (this is usually much clearer afterwards btw) you still must have the courage to commit. In this hand there are just 4 hands that beat you..and that's after you've just hit a 118-1 shot yourself. Add to that the fact Marcus has a wider range than those 4 hands...eg he isn't folding   EVER then you must commit to this.

Please remember all those times when you've called an oppo's push fearing the worst and they've turned over some crazy wtf weak holding. You MUST cultivate a courageous mentality inside yourself to win tournaments imo...big dick or not. If I didn't make this call here it would cost me money whenever I opted for the cautious route in the future when I feared the worst. To say you could have spotted it is very easy to say after...but before...all you could be spotting is a good bluff from an oppo who knows you fold flushes in this spot. You NEED to get your chips in here whether or not the result tells you different.

[MANTIS01]

Yeah, just read somewhere that there's less than a 2% chance that your oppo flops a flush that beats you here. Is there a 2% chance that Marcus is tilting, making a mistake, bored, wants to go home, just playing bad, has and just feels like gambling, has any of the other hands in his range?? All these things have a 2% chance of occurring here...and that's why you can't fold. Folding means you respect your oppos so much you think they never behave like a human being...and that's deffo gonna cost you money imo.

[nirvana]

Yeah, just read somewhere that there's less than a 2% chance that your oppo flops a flush that beats you here. Is there a 2% chance that Marcus is tilting, making a mistake, bored, wants to go home, just playing bad, has and just feels like gambling, has any of the other hands in his range?? All these things have a 2% chance of occurring here...and that's why you can't fold. Folding means you respect your oppos so much you think they never behave like a human being...and that's deffo gonna cost you money imo.

I like the comments here - I'm a first level thinkng live donk. Over the last couple of months I have generally started to give less respect to players moves and been more prepared to look silly making calls with either light holdings or in spots like the one described.

This has lead to more early exits and a greater number of cashes - overall positive - very small sample though

[Rookie (Rodney)]

Is this whole thread a level??

If you don't stack off here I think its worse than stacking off!

[TightEnd]

I'm confused tikay

His range is AA,KK with diamonds, sets, two pairs, made flushes all of which he might well play the same way in this circumstance

You say you know of several players that can get off your hand here, presumably after he's come back over your check raise? Really?

You lead out, he raises.....given that range or similar how can you fold a made flush there?

You check raise, he pushes...for not a lot more how can you fold? He can have a bare big diamond just as often as a bigger made flush.

I've thought and thought and I, able to fold more weak-arsed than most, can't find a fold here under any post flop betting pattern unless you check, he checks the nuts and the turn brings another diamond

Nothing to do with ego that, but I think you're being too hard on yourself/results orientated suggesting you can find a pass

[tikay]

I'm confused tikay

His range is AA,KK with diamonds, sets, two pairs, made flushes all of which he might well play the same way in this circumstance

You say you know of several players that can get off your hand here, presumably after he's come back over your check raise? Really?

You lead out, he raises.....given that range or similar how can you fold a made flush there?

You check raise, he pushes...for not a lot more how can you fold? He can have a bare big diamond just as often as a bigger made flush.

I've thought and thought and I, able to fold more weak-arsed than most, can't find a fold here under any post flop betting pattern unless you check, he checks the nuts and the turn brings another diamond

Nothing to do with ego that, but I think you're being too hard on yourself/results orientated suggesting you can find a pass

Not at all.

We are analysing a poker hand - that's why it's on the Poker Hand Analysis Board.

I Posted it for a bunch of reasons, as I previously explained.......

1) I thought Marcus played it well, & "interestingly".

2) He played it so deceptively that almost everyone on here who tried to guess his hand got it wrong. So that was educational, yes?

3) GreekStein, who I chatted with that night, said his game had improved leaps & bounds because of threads like this on blonde PHA, & this encouraged me to Post this.

As to my "ability" to Pass, well I won't argue with anyone - I well know that conventional thinking is that we have to stack off here. But I theorised that we do NOT have to stack off here. And we don't - but that's just an opinion, & something to ponder.
 

[kinboshi]

I'm confused tikay

His range is AA,KK with diamonds, sets, two pairs, made flushes all of which he might well play the same way in this circumstance

You say you know of several players that can get off your hand here, presumably after he's come back over your check raise? Really?

You lead out, he raises.....given that range or similar how can you fold a made flush there?

You check raise, he pushes...for not a lot more how can you fold? He can have a bare big diamond just as often as a bigger made flush.

I've thought and thought and I, able to fold more weak-arsed than most, can't find a fold here under any post flop betting pattern unless you check, he checks the nuts and the turn brings another diamond

Nothing to do with ego that, but I think you're being too hard on yourself/results orientated suggesting you can find a pass

Agree with that.

Tikay, if you can find a pass here because "he knows I'm a nit", then you're leaving yourself open to be exploited are you not?

[TightEnd]

I'm not criticising you for posting it tikay, indeed I have given the thread a lot of thought so in that small sense its been perfect PHA material

btw limping A5d UTG with 50xbb? Is he intending to call a raise out of position?

Agreed, post flop he's got paid superbly

[tikay]

I just have a couple of questions Tikay.

Did it seem the sort of table where you could limp suited connectors and see a cheap flop?

Would you have considered limping with Marcus' hand in his position safe in the knowledge that you probably weren't going to face a raise?

Did you often get unraised pots on this table?

If you didn't was it usually Marcus doing the raising?

In order......

1) Yes.

2) No. I don't really get involved at this stage of this type of Tourney when everyone is limping in. I'm in, properly, with a R, or I Pass.

3) Yes. There were numerous family Pots. But Raising made no difference. An UTG Raiser made it 250 at 25-50 & got SIX callers. (All for 5% of their stack.....). So possibly Limping here was not as bad as traditional thinking suggests.

4) Yes, Marcus was probably the most active, followed by the Pig Farmer.

To give you an idea of how Passive the Table was, look at this hand......

Marcus makes it 500. Next to speak, (Commodity Trader) has 950 behind, after an accident - & FLATS the 500. Out of 950 total........ 5 more players all Call.

The flop came K high, Marcus (with AK) bet out, & Commodity Trader called. (Aces, obviously). And sextupled up.

[Cf]

I'm confused tikay

His range is AA,KK with diamonds, sets, two pairs, made flushes all of which he might well play the same way in this circumstance

You say you know of several players that can get off your hand here, presumably after he's come back over your check raise? Really?

You lead out, he raises.....given that range or similar how can you fold a made flush there?

You check raise, he pushes...for not a lot more how can you fold? He can have a bare big diamond just as often as a bigger made flush.

I've thought and thought and I, able to fold more weak-arsed than most, can't find a fold here under any post flop betting pattern unless you check, he checks the nuts and the turn brings another diamond

Nothing to do with ego that, but I think you're being too hard on yourself/results orientated suggesting you can find a pass

Not at all.

We are analysing a poker hand - that's why it's on the Poker Hand Analysis Board.

I Posted it for a bunch of reasons, as I previously explained.......

1) I thought Marcus played it well, & "interestingly".

2) He played it so deceptively that almost everyone on here who tried to guess his hand got it wrong. So that was educational, yes?

3) GreekStein, who I chatted with that night, said his game had improved leaps & bounds because of threads like this on blonde PHA, & this encouraged me to Post this.

As to my "ability" to Pass, well I won't argue with anyone - I well know that conventional thinking is that we have to stack off here. But I theorised that we do NOT have to stack off here. And we don't - but that's just an opinion, & something to ponder.
 

I wouldn't be heaping too much praise on the guy for this particular pot.

Firstly, limping UTG with A5s? I can't imagine there's many here who think that's a good play? Esp with his stack size.

He led at it on the flop. Ok, a lot of people might check, but I think the bet is also fairly standard.

So with all respect to him, the fact that his dubious UTG limp ran into another made flush was more luck than good play imo.

[tikay]

I'm not criticising you for posting it tikay, indeed I have given the thread a lot of thought so in that small sense its been perfect PHA material

btw limping A5d UTG with 50xbb? Is he intending to call a raise out of position?

Agreed, post flop he's got paid superbly

Exactly - great PHA material. And I thought it'd be good to Post a hand that I think Marcus (or anyone) played so interestingly & deceptively, such that he lifted my leg a treat, & deceived almost every Poster on this thread.

I was always going to make the Call, as I clearly stated. But on reflection, I wondered whether I really had to. Calling when we are behind is a bad thing, however you dress up "oh, we have to call". Raising when behind is fine, of course.

[kinboshi]

I'm not criticising you for posting it tikay, indeed I have given the thread a lot of thought so in that small sense its been perfect PHA material

btw limping A5d UTG with 50xbb? Is he intending to call a raise out of position?

Agreed, post flop he's got paid superbly

Exactly - great PHA material. And I thought it'd be good to Post a hand that I think Marcus (or anyone) played so interestingly & deceptively, such that he lifted my leg a treat, & deceived almost every Poster on this thread.

I was always going to make the Call, as I clearly stated. But on reflection, I wondered whether I really had to. Calling when we are behind is a bad thing, however you dress up "oh, we have to call". Raising when behind is fine, of course.

I don't think he deceived every poster on the thread.  What most people are saying is that although Axd was in his range, it only makes up a small percentage of the possible hands he holds, and he plays a lot of other hands the same way.  It's a cooler, and if he plays the hand the same way with the other holdings you win more times than you lose.  The only hands he actually wins a lot of chips from you is you have a made flush.  Otherwise he doesn't get lucky and his play doesn't look as good does it?