ANOTHER £50 live hand freezeout

[Simon Galloway]

Background: 280k chips in play, hero has taken a standard uphill battering all evening and dribbled into the final, 20k stack, blinds 2k 4k 7 handed.

UTG has just lost a flip the previous hand and is AI blind for 1k, 1 limper, then villain limps in hi-jack with a 30k stack, sb completes and hero shoves AI from BB for another 16k into a 17k pot, obv gtd showdown with UTG AI.

Appreciate some thoughts on the following questions:

1. Lots of dead money in the pot, regardless of hand, how wide do you shove here?  1st limper has 60k, sb also short stack.  Are there any criteria that would make you play the hand any differently?  payout structure, villain calling station, stop'n'go the flop, anything else that springs to mind.
2.  If you were villain and bb shoved, 1st limper folds, how wide do you think you can call here?  What variables go into your decision making process?  BB capability/propensity/history of making a move, hot and cold value of your own hand, laddering potential, chance to give a player a good old fashioned ****ing with half a hand?
3. any other comments.

It obv didn't end well for hero, but that's besides the point.  Just interested in how varied (or homogenous) the replies will be.  For those of you that have played with me, then you have your stats/notes on the BB   Feel free to use those in answering/abusing.  For those of you who never have, well now you have the same observational information as three quarters of the field in said tournament

[Jamier-Host]

1. Lots of dead money in the pot, regardless of hand, how wide do you shove here?  1st limper has 60k, sb also short stack.  Are there any criteria that would make you play the hand any differently?  payout structure, villain calling station, stop'n'go the flop, anything else that springs to mind.
2.  If you were villain and bb shoved, 1st limper folds, how wide do you think you can call here?  What variables go into your decision making process?  BB capability/propensity/history of making a move, hot and cold value of your own hand, laddering potential, chance to give a player a good old fashioned ****ing with half a hand?
3. any other comments.

1. Pretty much ATC.  Seems like a good situation to gamble heads up if you get a caller (ignoring the UTG) with some dead money in there.  You never know they might even pass which gets you a comedy showdown against the UTG with your rags.

2. Depends who the BB was.  Pretty wide if it's someone decent but would be worried if it's a nit student or old school chump.

3. Bit picky but anyone else prefer to see cards and maybe pass something really awful if UTG there rather than just sticking it in blind?

[Simon Galloway]

2. Depends who the BB was.  Pretty wide if it's someone decent but would be worried if it's a nit student or old school chump.

Bb was me ldo.  So all three categories are possible, depending who you ask.

[TightEnd]

1. About the top 80% of hands in this spot as Hero. Reduce that to top 50% or so if the Villain is a known calling station . If this is the case I would jam any unopened spots from the next hand on. Assuming we're talking a Luton comp, quite a few of the villain's will be calling stations. The odd villain will limp expecting a decent BB to shove ATC. You are too short to stop n go with much hope of success here

2. I'd have you as very aware/decent (take it as a compliment) so would call as villain pretty wide but then again 30k is an odd stack in this spot. Maybe that increases fold propensity..ie you have some fold equity against 30k man not 60k man.

2b Interestingly your image amongst many is you are making loads of moves, when in reality I think you are making far less than the perception. Given this (which I am confident is true) I'd shy a bit away from ATC towards Mostly ATC as the Hero pusher!

3. What on earth is 60k doing limp-folding there? Muppet.

[paulhouk03]

1. Lots of dead money in the pot, regardless of hand, how wide do you shove here?  1st limper has 60k, sb also short stack.  Are there any criteria that would make you play the hand any differently?  payout structure, villain calling station, stop'n'go the flop, anything else that springs to mind.
2.  If you were villain and bb shoved, 1st limper folds, how wide do you think you can call here?  What variables go into your decision making process?  BB capability/propensity/history of making a move, hot and cold value of your own hand, laddering potential, chance to give a player a good old fashioned ****ing with half a hand?
3. any other comments.

It obv didn't end well for hero, but that's besides the point.  Just interested in how varied (or homogenous) the replies will be.  For those of you that have played with me, then you have your stats/notes on the BB   Feel free to use those in answering/abusing.  For those of you who never have, well now you have the same observational information as three quarters of the field in said tournament

1. depends what ur image is. how desprate for money u r. league points if any? if there is one more spot to make money.maybe limper is setting a strange trap? dpends how crappy the tourney is. and how connected my cards are. and how high my high card is
 but i would shove a wide range.
2. depends on the BB image, limper has almost 30% of chips in play why am i limping? any physical tells. or hatered for the bb player.
3. what am i doing with 5 bbs left?

[MANTIS01]

When UTG dribbles his last 1k into the pot it sets up a limpathon. People anticipate bluffing is unlikely with showdown guaranteed and they theoretically share a common goal to snuff out the ss. Because this is the expectation any of the other players with a proper hand would raise fearing this multi-way bink fiasco. So we KNOW villains have hands they can fold. Add to that the fact the curiosity factor which prompts many bad calls is nullified by the all-in guy...and the potential of the situation is clear. If we see the potential in the situation why do we need to look at our cards at all? Whatever you see down there isn't going to change the merits of the situation.

I think it's important what your image is like and how you put your chips in at this point. I would avoid the insta-jam and instead opt for max hollywood before pushing slowly and telling the field it's only another 12k. The dealer will unwittingly aid your deception by correcting your suspiciously low estimate and villains should be squeezed out accordingly. It doesn't really matter what happens because this situation prob knocks spots off any other situation if you decide to c-fold this hand. We know we need to play in an opposing fashion to our oppos in poker. Here your oppos are passive and you have a seemingly final opportunity to be aggressive. Your cards...or any other factors don't change that. Any two without looking is good poker imo....gotta hollywood that shove though.

[Simon Galloway]

cheers for the replies.  In no particular order, yes Luton.  5BB's was inflicted on me rather than choosing to have it.  I was in the process of doing something about it, for about the 40th time this tournament.  And lol at mis-quoting all in bet size for the reverse.

would anyone like to have a stab at the correct calling range for villain?  Either as a standard calling range against unknown BB or tailored to the extra info that you have in this thread.

For the BB, lets say you can now 100% guarantee a wide call from villain.  How unexploitable is the shove now regardless?  i.o.w. how much, if at all, does BB have to consider making an (in a vacuum) inferior poker decision to not shove based on this surefire call that's coming.

And yes I realise we are on life support, but I would like to extrapolate the situation into a healthier chip count environment, so the answer doesn't just default to "5BBs shove ffs."  How deep would you want to be before having to actually look at your hand to complete your decision?

[MANTIS01]

Firstly, any limping villain should have a 0% range for calling your shove imo. The situation isn't set up for aggression behind an early limp without a genuine hand...so none of these villains are limping to trap imo. They are only limping to get their chips into the game in a half-arsed way if they limp to call in this situation.

The most significant thing you say is this...does BB have to consider making an (in a vacuum) inferior poker decision to not shove based on this surefire call that's coming. Anticipating how your oppo is going to think/act in the face of your moves is part and parcel of the game and thus an important consideration in your decision making process. Therefore, it is impossible to make an inferior poker decision by considering your opponent's next move. Yeah, he might play bad...but him playing bad and you anticpating that fact can only make for a superior poker decision imo. So in this example if you're saying villain calls you a big % of the time then suddenly you have a completely different situation on your hands. No FE means the cards become pretty important imo. Pushing with a hand that's gonna get called and will be potentially dominated is almost pointless isn't it? So pushing A-x doesn't appeal anymore.