KK on horrible board. River decision/turn review

[Firaldo87]

Villain was decentish, and have seen him c/c one pair type hands on the river oop.

The result is left out but im more interested in the theory behind it as i tend to get value-towned alot in these situations. I thought he was drawing as any weak made hand checks river and because of his turn check/river lead i thought either KJ,J9,89 plus possible flushes but i think these are less likely.

Arguments for calling or folding please :-)

PokerStars Game #26546844714: Tournament #151712517, $15.00+$1.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2009/03/30 22:48:11 WET [2009/03/30 17:48:11 ET]
Table '151712517 25' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: ~*RubiBlue*~ (2785 in chips)
Seat 2: TEXAS fight (1345 in chips)
Seat 3: quinton30 (1520 in chips)
Seat 4: Wet'nWin (3445 in chips)
Seat 5: luckyodogiam (990 in chips)
Seat 6: NAMDAC (4240 in chips)
Seat 7: nivek74 (1095 in chips)
Seat 8: sandler1860 (565 in chips)
Seat 9: Firaldo87 (2380 in chips)
NAMDAC: posts small blind 25
nivek74: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Firaldo87 [ ]
sandler1860: folds
Firaldo87: raises 100 to 150
~RubiBlue~: folds
TEXAS fight: folds
quinton30: folds
Wet'nWin: folds
luckyodogiam: folds
NAMDAC: calls 125
nivek74: folds
*** FLOP *** [ ]
NAMDAC: checks
Firaldo87: bets 220
NAMDAC: calls 220
*** TURN *** [ ] []
NAMDAC: checks
Firaldo87: checks
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
NAMDAC: bets 500
Firaldo87:

[KarlizLV]

bet more on flop.
river looks like a pass.

[LOJ]

bet turn

[ZZZZZZZROPE]

bet turn

agree, whats the reason for checking back turn?

[Firaldo87]

I check the turn for a few reasons (not sure i like it now though tbh). Most of these come from the fact I have him tagged as "has a clue"

1. pot control if the third heart has made him a flush (I have the so I dont need to protect against a 4th heart)

2. As i had him read as decentish I dont think he calls the turn here with hands im beating unless maybe AQ. He's not calling turn w like QJ or JJ for example, whereas he may c/c river with it as my hand looks like missed cbet/river bluff, giving me more value from my hand.

3. It allows him to bluff missed draws on the river in addition to c/c weakish made hands (by firing turn i miss value from both theses hands.

4. Downside - it gives him a free card at any straight draws he has (when the A hit i was most worried about KJ rather than any Ax type hand (the fact I had KK actually led me to call as obv its less likely he has KJ as opposed to J9/89

Against opponents I have down as "bad" I will fire the turn like 99% of the time.

Im not sure if this is a correct thought process but its the one i had at the time lol.

[MC]

bet more on flop.

What's wrong with 220 into 350?

I'm pretty much always betting this turn.

Personally I snap the river cos there's every chance he's only betting cos you checked the turn. This is what the check was designed to do and he's done it, so to pass now seems a bit silly!

But playing tricky often makes less chips than just playing this standardly. You're probably well ahead on the turn so bet!

[AlexMartin]

I check the turn for a few reasons (not sure i like it now though tbh). Most of these come from the fact I have him tagged as "has a clue"

1. pot control if the third heart has made him a flush (I have the so I dont need to protect against a 4th heart)

2. As i had him read as decentish I dont think he calls the turn here with hands im beating unless maybe AQ. He's not calling turn w like QJ or JJ for example, whereas he may c/c river with it as my hand looks like missed cbet/river bluff, giving me more value from my hand.

3. It allows him to bluff missed draws on the river in addition to c/c weakish made hands (by firing turn i miss value from both theses hands.

4. Downside - it gives him a free card at any straight draws he has (when the A hit i was most worried about KJ rather than any Ax type hand (the fact I had KK actually led me to call as obv its less likely he has KJ as opposed to J9/89

Against opponents I have down as "bad" I will fire the turn like 99% of the time.

Im not sure if this is a correct thought process but its the one i had at the time lol.

goooood reasoning. well played, betting the turn is also fine too and possibly better here, but checking back is obv good too. villain dependant.

As played, fold river is probably best.

[paulhouk03]

bet turn.
and i think call river too he could be bluffing a wide range here due to ur "weakness"shown on the turn

[Firaldo87]

Ok posting results now. Thx everyone for ur input. On the river i banked then called and he flipped 89ss for a missed straight draw. The turn check was probably the most controversial aspect of this hand (I posted it on my training site forum and 4 pros said bet and 3 said check behind lol).

Anyways thx for the thoughts all.

Firaldo

[thetank]

bet more on flop.

What's wrong with 220 into 350?

I'm pretty much always betting this turn.

Personally I snap the river cos there's every chance he's only betting cos you checked the turn. This is what the check was designed to do and he's done it, so to pass now seems a bit silly!

But playing tricky often makes less chips than just playing this standardly. You're probably well ahead on the turn so bet!

this