Short Stacked, Cold Decked, When should I push ?

[mike saban]

This is my first post in this section, hopefully it comes across as a sensible and genuine question.

For some time now, I'm finding that I get into the last 30% of an MTT the majority of the time, but I'm more likely to limp into the cash ( if I cash ) than threaten the final table.

My question is, when getting short stacked and not getting any monsters, at what point do the cards get disregarded and I need to be getting all my chips in with any two in a hope of taking the blinds and antes or maybe even getting lucky and doubling up to stay alive ?

I've heard and read the figures 10BB or even 10 orbits, and must admit have used this in the past but aways been unfortunate with my timing and ran into a big hand and then end up kicking myself for not waiting a little longer. I've also waited for that monster and by the time it came, obviously I need about 7 on the trot just to pay the next blind or others are priced to call with lesser holdings.

Obviously its better to not get in this position in the first place, but maybe its a mental hurdle I have to get through as finding myself in this position a lot recently when not getting dealt playable hands.

Thanks.

[thetank]

It's all about position imo.

Pushing from the small blind into one person with  can be better than pushing into six people from early position with  .

[gribbo]

im a very average tournament player and im sure some of the better guys will chime in, what tank said is important, One of the best ways to get chips in MTTs is by restealing against loose aggresive players who are opening a ton of pots esp in late position however you have to make sure you have enough chips/tight enough image to make the guy fold this is really imp. By doing this in a late stage of a MTT with antes in play it can win u 3-4bb each time. Also be prepared to gamble a bit more to try and get a stack as the few times you go to FT with a large stack is gona be a lot more profitable than squeaking into the money and FT.

[mike saban]

Thanks for responding Tank. Reading back I don't think I composed my question very clearly.

I understand that its better to be first into the pot and in a late position ( although I recently made a major mistake pushing utg with approx 14 BB thinking I could pick up the 2.5 BB in the middle as I would look pretty strong, only to run into AA ) but at what point do you think it becomes critical to push with rubbish when first in the pot and in late position to continue to compete ?

For example lets say, I'm on the button with 20K, its full table of 10 and I have got 72o, blinds are 2k/1k with an ante of 200, so I have 10 BB or an M of 4. Should I pushing now ? or should I have gone way before getting this low ? or I'm not quite out of it just yet and can survive at least another orbit before having to make this move.

Obviously it depends on the stack size of other people on the table, but for the sake of this example lets say that there were 200 players with a starting stack of 10K and we are now down to the last 60, so an average stack would be approx 35K, so I need a double up to get back to average.

Of course there is no definite answer, but I think this stage of the game is certainly a weak point for me, and am looking for opinions to use as guidance for when I next find myself here.

Hopefully that makes sense.

[mike saban]

Thanks for responding Gribbo, some good points there

[thetank]

It's a very good question, there are some people here with lots of MTT experience who should be able to offer you some good advice. I'm not one of them, but will throw in tuppence worth anyway.

Rearding the 72o push, I don't think it would usually be a good idea from the button with with that size of a stack.
The important x factor would be how often you think the blinds will call you. If they are really nitty, you can get away with a lot more.

or should I have gone way before getting this low ?

I think you've got to take each hand at a time. Sometimes the spots don't come and you have no choice but to wait till you get that low, or even lower.

If you are finding this happen consistently, then it's likely that you could be missing a lot of potential spots though.

As gribbo points out, these spots are not all going all-in pre flop in an open pot. A lot will be going over the top of someone, and more still may involve defending your blind more, iso-shoving on a short stack, calling an all-in a little looser etc.

I don't play MTTs much at the moment though as I understand it, the better players who consistantly bink huge scores have to gamble a lot to get to the final table and win lots of races. The less succsseful players wait too long for too big an edge and end up with lots of min cashes.

[AlexMartin]

It's all about position imo.

Pushing from the small blind into one person with  can be better than pushing into six people from early position with  .

close, can u give exact chip counts please.

[daviebhoy]

I think your question relates directly to ICM calculations and for these type of situations www.sngwiz.com can be a big help. I also found the jam/fold tables in the Mathematics of Poker book very useful for getting a grasp of hand values in these situations in relation to your stack. You will find you should be pushing a lot looser than you currently are but pushing too loose is a big mistake aswell. Experience and some reading is probably the best way to get this.

For MTT's once the blinds get big and there are antes's people like yourself tighten up way too much in MTTs waiting on a hand. Here stealing becomes vital for tournament survival and to grow your stack to be in a position to win the tournament. When you are stealing your hand value is really irrelevant as you are not wanting to get to a showdown. It is more a question of how likely the steal is going to get through. Dangers of this are that you don't want to run into a big stack so avoid this and also avoid stealing if there are short stacks likely to push committing you to preflop allin showing the table what you are up to. Gus Hansens book every hand revealed demonstrates how he goes about this really well.

[Longy]

27o from the button with non loose blinds is a push for 10bb with an ante. As Daviebhoy says you can use sngwiz to practice push/fold decision in mtts by setting it to calculate chip EV situations. K10s for 10bbs with an ante utg is a push as well.

[mike saban]

Thanks for the tips, I'll take a look at the sngwizard and see if it helps.

Cheers