omaha hand top set 5 way on flop on draw heavy board

[paulhouk03]

been play titeish
but just quaded up last orbit
have stack of 260
not super crazy

5 ppl called 16 pre
i had qq76 double hearts and spade in mp
flop comes TJQ two diamonds
two ppl check
What would you do??

two ppl to act behind me

[EvilPie]

Bet full pot.

You're probably good now but obviously vulnerable.

If everyone passes be happy.

If someone raises they must have AK but by betting pot previously it's now costing you £164 to win £324 which is a good price to hit your house as you're about 40% at this stage.

You can't really make any mistakes with the stack you're playing tbh.

If you end up seeing a turn then remember that you're about 25% to hit on the end.

Just check what's in the pot and what it's going to cost you to call then decide whether you fancy a gamble.

[RichEO]

I don't necessarily agree with this exactly. Sounds like you say bet the pot so you are now stuck to call heads up for the board to pair. You might as well check call if that's the plan keep as many players in as possible to get better pot odds. You are also almost definitely not winning at the moment, but you could get non-nut straights to pass.

You can bet the pot to get 89 or K9 to pass. You can bet the pot to get a rock with AK no diamonds to pass. If you think the players in your game fold these hands then bet the pot. Only you can judge this from your opponents. If not, I bet half pot or check. Someone has a straight on this board 5 way. It is not a draw heavy board so to speak... the draw has already got there!

Essentially (ie with no other infor on your opponents) I bet half pot. If I get flat called by one player and no diamond arrives then I bet the turn if I am 1st to act. This is becuase I think I have the best hand or they will fold a low staight. If I am in position I may check behind, this could win me a big pot if it pairs up. Checking behind means you are not getting K9 to pass now tho. By betting half pot I am trying to keep it multiway and possibly get multiple callers. This could lead to getting paid by a lower full house if it pairs up. But if you bet the pot now, you will probably scare off all 2 pairs and lower sets.

It will be hard to pass this hand on the flop (or impossible) and you could be getting your money in badly (rare but possible). If you get action from the wrong player and it doesn't pair up on the turn or a diamond hits you can get away. Beware if it's multiway and you think some other players have 2 pair or a lower set, this severly impacts your outs but is hard to judge.

The easiest ways to play it are to check and hope to get a free or cheap card for a pair up. Or to bet pot and say you are not passing regardless. Saving most of your stack until the turn will mean you can narrow down who you are up against and decide of if they are drawing or not and possibly save you some money.

[EvilPie]

The easiest ways to play it are to check and hope to get a free or cheap card for a pair up. Or to bet pot and say you are not passing regardless.

If we check and it pairs up do you think we get paid though? Also if it doesn't pair up and a diamond or brick drops what do we do? If the action gets frisky we've got to give up on the hand with only one card to come.

I quite like the check if there's a likely thief to act behind us but that's obviously player dependant.

If anyone has a made straight they usually bet here to protect against the flush. I stress the usually.

A decent player on the button will know this so will probably make a bet if it gets to him as he knows it's unlikely that anyone has the made hand.

This may get a couple of callers from flush draws or a raise from a slow played straight. Whatever happens we hopefully get the chance to shove the lot in either ahead or with a good nut draw in a multiway pot. Always a nice situation to be in.

I still prefer the pot bet now given our stack size. With a possible winning hand and a 40% chance of making pretty much the nuts I think I want all the money in now. Deeper stacked I'd proceed with caution but with 130bbs at the start I can't see any better way of playing this than to pot it.

[paulhouk03]

does the flush draw make a difference?
were playing to hit a full house.
if the turn comes a diamond, is it that much difference for us as were still trying to fill up.
i dont think if a diamond comes it doesnt change our hand that significantly

also is the check raise not a move in this situation?

[EvilPie]

does the flush draw make a difference?
were playing to hit a full house.
if the turn comes a diamond, is it that much difference for us as were still trying to fill up.
i dont think if a diamond comes it doesnt change our hand that significantly

also is the check raise not a move in this situation?

The flush draw makes a difference but in two different ways.

Firstly if you are currently ahead there could be someone with a big draw involving a wrap and the fd as well so you're never a big favourite.

Secondly if you're behind already it makes a difference because you want people with the draw to join the pot and improve your pot odds.

I don't know which situation I'd prefer to be in tbh. Currently behind in a multiway pot or currently ahead against a big draw heads up.

If the turn is a diamond it's very different to us. It now means that we are behind almost 100% of the time with only 1 card to come. A non diamond means that we may be in front but with outs anyway if we are behind.

The turn is always significant no matter what it is. It means that we only have 1 card left to improve if we need to and drastically decreases our chances of winning. That's why I like to get it in pre because even when we are behind we are still only a 3/2 dog.

The check raise would be a great move here imo if you think that one of the guys after you will bet. If you were first to act then I would definitely say check but as you are 3rd there's a good chance of no action.

A blank turn could then lead to all sorts of action with you thinking that you're behind but not wanting to pass because you've got top set.

[GreekStein]

Haven't read the whole thread but I don't bet out on the flop. Someone most certainly has nuts here so I'd rather wait until people call with flush draws etc before I raise and try and get everyone committed so that at least I'm getting a great price for the board to pair.

[#1Instigator]

I don't necessarily agree with this exactly. Sounds like you say bet the pot so you are now stuck to call heads up for the board to pair. You might as well check call if that's the plan keep as many players in as possible to get better pot odds. You are also almost definitely not winning at the moment, but you could get non-nut straights to pass.

You can bet the pot to get 89 or K9 to pass. You can bet the pot to get a rock with AK no diamonds to pass. If you think the players in your game fold these hands then bet the pot. Only you can judge this from your opponents. If not, I bet half pot or check. Someone has a straight on this board 5 way. It is not a draw heavy board so to speak... the draw has already got there!

Essentially (ie with no other infor on your opponents) I bet half pot. If I get flat called by one player and no diamond arrives then I bet the turn if I am 1st to act. This is becuase I think I have the best hand or they will fold a low staight. If I am in position I may check behind, this could win me a big pot if it pairs up. Checking behind means you are not getting K9 to pass now tho. By betting half pot I am trying to keep it multiway and possibly get multiple callers. This could lead to getting paid by a lower full house if it pairs up. But if you bet the pot now, you will probably scare off all 2 pairs and lower sets.

It will be hard to pass this hand on the flop (or impossible) and you could be getting your money in badly (rare but possible). If you get action from the wrong player and it doesn't pair up on the turn or a diamond hits you can get away. Beware if it's multiway and you think some other players have 2 pair or a lower set, this severly impacts your outs but is hard to judge.

The easiest ways to play it are to check and hope to get a free or cheap card for a pair up. Or to bet pot and say you are not passing regardless. Saving most of your stack until the turn will mean you can narrow down who you are up against and decide of if they are drawing or not and possibly save you some money.

excellent post and I have to agree with all of it. Its not a good idea to commit yourself when your most likely well behind and need to hit to win. This way, you'll win lots of small pots but will almost always get it in behind. With the general aggression level in Omaha these days, there is no need to play in a style that increases variance, therefore no need to commit yourself unnessasarily (eg most pple overly-commit with nut flush draws and top two).
should go with 'big hand big bet, medium hand small bet, little hand no bet' top set on a TJQ board is medium hand at best so play accordingly.

[RichEO]

The easiest ways to play it are to check and hope to get a free or cheap card for a pair up. Or to bet pot and say you are not passing regardless.

If we check and it pairs up do you think we get paid though? Also if it doesn't pair up and a diamond or brick drops what do we do? If the action gets frisky we've got to give up on the hand with only one card to come.

If you bet and it pairs up you shouldn't be getting paid. If you get to the turn and it pairs up there is now a chance someone likes there JJ enough to die with it. And you are now getting your money in ahead instead of hoping your set might be good and that all your outs are live.

I quite like the check if there's a likely thief to act behind us but that's obviously player dependant.

If anyone has a made straight they usually bet here to protect against the flush. I stress the usually.

A decent player on the button will know this so will probably make a bet if it gets to him as he knows it's unlikely that anyone has the made hand.

This may get a couple of callers from flush draws or a raise from a slow played straight. Whatever happens we hopefully get the chance to shove the lot in either ahead or with a good nut draw in a multiway pot. Always a nice situation to be in.

I still prefer the pot bet now given our stack size. With a possible winning hand and a 40% chance of making pretty much the nuts I think I want all the money in now. Deeper stacked I'd proceed with caution but with 130bbs at the start I can't see any better way of playing this than to pot it.

You have 3 options:

You can pot it, which either takes the pot down or you probably get your money in as a significant dog heads up (you are actually less than 40%, if they have even 1 pair with AK then you are now a 2/1 dog).

You can play it multiway as a powerful draw. Either a small bet or a check to keep everyone in.

You can make a 1/2 pot bet to try and see where you are in the hand. You might get flat called by one opponent OOP and this makes the hand easier to play. You might even be able to extract some value on the turn from a flush draw or stack someone with JJ if the ten pairs.

By making any bet you are realistically getting yourself pot stuck and can't fold. By making a smaller bet you hopefully don't drive away any value from 2nd set or flush draws. If you are getting your money in on the flop vs the made straight you definitely want a flush draw to come along for the ride.

Ideally I don't want my whole stack in heads up here, you can be in a world of pain if you are against AKJJ!

[EvilPie]

I'm liking the thinking here but still need to get a few things clear.

Maybe I'll rethink my play with top set in future. I guess it's the gambler in me coming out.

I like to get it in knowing that I can either take the pot now or hit to take a nice big pot.

I know what you're saying about the AKJJ having our hand stuffed. Very nasty. But can we always be worried about being behind?

So going down this line what is our preferred play if it checks round and a horror card drops.  is about the worst I can think of or any K or diamond are still very bad for us.

Are we then completely done with the hand and not putting so much as a penny more in the pot?

What if it's a blank card? Presumably this doesn't alter things too much as we think we were behind anyway but are we still not prepared to put anything in the pot?

I know this is a nasty board but how nice do we want the board to be before we like top set?

[#1Instigator]

i'd say top set is normally extremely good but that is one of the worst flops EVER!

[paulhouk03]

I don't necessarily agree with this exactly. Sounds like you say bet the pot so you are now stuck to call heads up for the board to pair. You might as well check call if that's the plan keep as many players in as possible to get better pot odds. You are also almost definitely not winning at the moment, but you could get non-nut straights to pass.

You can bet the pot to get 89 or K9 to pass. You can bet the pot to get a rock with AK no diamonds to pass. If you think the players in your game fold these hands then bet the pot. Only you can judge this from your opponents. If not, I bet half pot or check. Someone has a straight on this board 5 way. It is not a draw heavy board so to speak... the draw has already got there!

Essentially (ie with no other infor on your opponents) I bet half pot. If I get flat called by one player and no diamond arrives then I bet the turn if I am 1st to act. This is becuase I think I have the best hand or they will fold a low staight. If I am in position I may check behind, this could win me a big pot if it pairs up. Checking behind means you are not getting K9 to pass now tho. By betting half pot I am trying to keep it multiway and possibly get multiple callers. This could lead to getting paid by a lower full house if it pairs up. But if you bet the pot now, you will probably scare off all 2 pairs and lower sets.

It will be hard to pass this hand on the flop (or impossible) and you could be getting your money in badly (rare but possible). If you get action from the wrong player and it doesn't pair up on the turn or a diamond hits you can get away. Beware if it's multiway and you think some other players have 2 pair or a lower set, this severly impacts your outs but is hard to judge.

The easiest ways to play it are to check and hope to get a free or cheap card for a pair up. Or to bet pot and say you are not passing regardless. Saving most of your stack until the turn will mean you can narrow down who you are up against and decide of if they are drawing or not and possibly save you some money.

excellent post and I have to agree with all of it. Its not a good idea to commit yourself when your most likely well behind and need to hit to win. This way, you'll win lots of small pots but will almost always get it in behind. With the general aggression level in Omaha these days, there is no need to play in a style that increases variance, therefore no need to commit yourself unnessasarily (eg most pple overly-commit with nut flush draws and top two).
should go with 'big hand big bet, medium hand small bet, little hand no bet' top set on a TJQ board is medium hand at best so play accordingly.

This isnt helping much i dont think.
if i have a medium hand i should bet small with 2 ppl to act behind me.
what would u do if u get reraised?



I only think the diamond coming on the turn will make no difference because on this flop i would think that you are ahead about <20% of the time on this flop.
2 players are to act and the first 2 could be ready to check raise.

options

check peel turn and just fold to any bet on the turn when it bricks?

betting out pot. It might push out some hands like 89 k9 out but if the board pairs up on the turn you might not get paid.

beting out half pot. Not too sure what to think of this maybe to give flush draws and lower straights to call. and builds up apot and not commiting myself too much.

is there an arguement for folding here to a pot bet?

check peel turn and just fold to any bet on the turn when it bricks?

hope to check raise?

[RichEO]

If you get all your money in on the flop or you end up passing on the flop, neither will be a massive mistake. It's possible that getting your money in on the flop could be a bigger mistake than passing but it completely depends whether your pair outs are gone or not and thats hard to judge. Given more thought I like to check and try and see the turn. You have a much clearer strategy on the turn. You can't get all your money in on the turn hoping for a pair up and you can easily fold if there is a pot bet. If you see the turn it will play itself.

[paulhouk03]

RESULTS
i checked someone bet 75 and got a caller.
i contemplated what to do now?
call peel
and just fold when it bricks

or fold


or push


i decided to push because i am pretty sure that i will get at least another caller or maybe both players.
And if i lost i would only lose my bi of 100 quid.

i talked to alot of ppl and had mixed comments to just fold to never fold


well it went like this

check, check, check, 75, call, fold, fold, all in for 240, call, all in for 800 total, call

To my amazement they both only had ak no pair no flush draws 

obv i brick