top two in the sb

[StuartHopkin]

89, J9, KJ, KQ, QJ type hands are all possible. Being OOP I really don't think we can afford to get really funky and flat here. I think this play just leads to us losing value.

By raising our hand is face up as very strong but at least we put a decision on the other two players and essentially we are trying to induce them to play for stacks with holdings like KQ KJ etc.

We can't lead on the turn having flatted pre. We may as well stand on the table and scream 'I've got you all by the bollocks'. By checking we're giving potentially 2 free cards and stand only to win a small pot when its clear our opponents or at least one opponent has an interest in that board.

It would just be a bit of a train wreck in a limped pot OOP I think.

Buddy, in the final 20 of a decent comp like this are you going to shove your comfortable stack in with zero FE after bet, raise, re-raise, holding K-Q or K-J? The only decision you give your oppos by raising is how quickly to muck imo. Therefore, it is raising that loses you value. If leading the turn after flatting the flop screams “I’ve got you by the bollocks” then when you have K-J you should call the flop and lead the turn. In fact, call flop-lead turn should be your default with any draw if it looks so incred strong. This is a good hand for debate thou & I think this discussion only gives credibility to leading the flop into 3 villains including 1 serial 3-bettor. Checking to raise here tells your oppos you have best hand and gives worse hands an easy fold, is that good poker?. You wanna make it easy for your oppos just in case you may make it harder for yourself.

Decent comp like this? What makes you say it's decent? Prob has all of about 3/4 good players in the last 20.

In these places the players are shit and I wouldn't put it past someone to go crazy and ship KQ/KJ here.

Fold equity!? If you said that at the table everyone would probably think you were talking about Origami.

I agree with you that the flop should have been led, 100% but don't like your suggested line with KJ.

Lol its like listening to myself 

[celtic]

I could discount the sb and bb from having any further interest in the hand.

You were the sb you donk!!

Bad beat in a way, because without being disrepectful to the other players at the table I get 4bet all in 100% of the time there imo.

QFT, but that is why I think Mantis and I weren't as hopeful that we were going to get a billed very good player to stack off when you raised.  Hence the smooth, and maybe you get your man on the turn.  If he is still good enough to get away, well not much you can do...

Oops sorry, meant bb and utg. Will change.

[outragous76]

I have history with James

Knowing who it was I would have overjammed all in. It looks like a scared donkey play! (which i can pull off with ease    )

i think you played it right! It takes someone of James' class to get away from bottom 2!

However - it would have also been someone in James' class who takes you off your hand when the scare card comes!

[George2Loose]

No wonder they call him Sickdog. Great laydown.

How come he isn't in vegas?

[celtic]

Back over here for a week or so then going back to vegas.

[LuckyLloyd]

ok, i have had mixed views on this thread and elsewhere on the flop play, so, here is what happened next.

i check, as does the BB, the utg limper bets 2k (lol) cut off makes it 10k.. I ?

Raise and commit yourself here

there is circa 22k in the pot, so i would rasie to 30-35k and make it clear that you are going nowhere.

If they flat (which is terribad) - i open shove any turn card (with 4 outs FTW kinda worse case). Hopefully they donk reshove with AA/KK/AQ and you fade the outs.

Why would you want to do that? Think about that statement really hard, you'll benefit if you do.

Celtic, your raise size was too big. Making it 24k is better, that few K can sometimes make people believe that you can / might fold if they ship. It's a classy fold from villain, but you need to think about your overall game if he is able to fold here. Like, if situations were reversed, would you fold his hand to him? I think not.

fwiw, I like leading / 3 betting / getting it in much better than playing for a checkraise. If I was in your spot I'd be looking to get as much money in on the flop as possible.

[George2Loose]

ok, i have had mixed views on this thread and elsewhere on the flop play, so, here is what happened next.

i check, as does the BB, the utg limper bets 2k (lol) cut off makes it 10k.. I ?

Raise and commit yourself here

there is circa 22k in the pot, so i would rasie to 30-35k and make it clear that you are going nowhere.

If they flat (which is terribad) - i open shove any turn card (with 4 outs FTW kinda worse case). Hopefully they donk reshove with AA/KK/AQ and you fade the outs.

Why would you want to do that? Think about that statement really hard, you'll benefit if you do.

Celtic, your raise size was too big. Making it 24k is better, that few K can sometimes make people believe that you can / might fold if they ship. It's a classy fold from villain, but you need to think about your overall game if he is able to fold here. Like, if situations were reversed, would you fold his hand to him? I think not.

fwiw, I like leading / 3 betting / getting it in much better than playing for a checkraise. If I was in your spot I'd be looking to get as much money in on the flop as possible.

Yup- I like raise to 22k to induce as said previously.

[boldie]

Welcome back Lloyd..now stick around dammit!

[outragous76]

ok, i have had mixed views on this thread and elsewhere on the flop play, so, here is what happened next.

i check, as does the BB, the utg limper bets 2k (lol) cut off makes it 10k.. I ?

Raise and commit yourself here

there is circa 22k in the pot, so i would rasie to 30-35k and make it clear that you are going nowhere.

If they flat (which is terribad) - i open shove any turn card (with 4 outs FTW kinda worse case). Hopefully they donk reshove with AA/KK/AQ and you fade the outs.

Why would you want to do that? Think about that statement really hard, you'll benefit if you do.

Celtic, your raise size was too big. Making it 24k is better, that few K can sometimes make people believe that you can / might fold if they ship. It's a classy fold from villain, but you need to think about your overall game if he is able to fold here. Like, if situations were reversed, would you fold his hand to him? I think not.

fwiw, I like leading / 3 betting / getting it in much better than playing for a checkraise. If I was in your spot I'd be looking to get as much money in on the flop as possible.

because with 160k stack he can call 24k (ie 14 more) with very good implied odds to hit his draw (he is calling 14 into 46k) - thats why. The size of the villains stack is important to.

I dont want him to just call. Ok you could argue that he is only going to see 1 card. However, if the scare card comes (which wasnt his) and you check, he gets the free shot at the river.

I am very happy to get it all in here. Calling the 35k would be a mathematical error - calling the 24k - not so much!

I have told you my pref is to take down the 22k in the pot and add 1/3 to my stack!

[LuckyLloyd]

ok, i have had mixed views on this thread and elsewhere on the flop play, so, here is what happened next.

i check, as does the BB, the utg limper bets 2k (lol) cut off makes it 10k.. I ?

Raise and commit yourself here

there is circa 22k in the pot, so i would rasie to 30-35k and make it clear that you are going nowhere.

If they flat (which is terribad) - i open shove any turn card (with 4 outs FTW kinda worse case). Hopefully they donk reshove with AA/KK/AQ and you fade the outs.

Why would you want to do that? Think about that statement really hard, you'll benefit if you do.

Celtic, your raise size was too big. Making it 24k is better, that few K can sometimes make people believe that you can / might fold if they ship. It's a classy fold from villain, but you need to think about your overall game if he is able to fold here. Like, if situations were reversed, would you fold his hand to him? I think not.

fwiw, I like leading / 3 betting / getting it in much better than playing for a checkraise. If I was in your spot I'd be looking to get as much money in on the flop as possible.

because with 160k stack he can call 24k (ie 14 more) with very good implied odds to hit his draw (he is calling 14 into 46k) - thats why. The size of the villains stack is important to.

I dont want him to just call. Ok you could argue that he is only going to see 1 card. However, if the scare card comes (which wasnt his) and you check, he gets the free shot at the river.

I am very happy to get it all in here. Calling the 35k would be a mathematical error - calling the 24k - not so much!

I have told you my pref is to take down the 22k in the pot and add 1/3 to my stack!

Stop worrying about things like protection and avoiding outdraws and concentrate more on getting value from weaker holdings. Yeah sometimes, we'll get counterfeited / binked off on the turn. So what? Other times we'll get KQ / QJ / bottom two / the straight draw to give us value over another street.

[Boba Fett]

Lead out, especially against a good player....check/raise from the blinds is almost always 2 pair or better..... If you decide to check/raise an overshove might work out as it looks drawy, you look far too strong with your line.

[outragous76]

ok, i have had mixed views on this thread and elsewhere on the flop play, so, here is what happened next.

i check, as does the BB, the utg limper bets 2k (lol) cut off makes it 10k.. I ?

Raise and commit yourself here

there is circa 22k in the pot, so i would rasie to 30-35k and make it clear that you are going nowhere.

If they flat (which is terribad) - i open shove any turn card (with 4 outs FTW kinda worse case). Hopefully they donk reshove with AA/KK/AQ and you fade the outs.

Why would you want to do that? Think about that statement really hard, you'll benefit if you do.

Celtic, your raise size was too big. Making it 24k is better, that few K can sometimes make people believe that you can / might fold if they ship. It's a classy fold from villain, but you need to think about your overall game if he is able to fold here. Like, if situations were reversed, would you fold his hand to him? I think not.

fwiw, I like leading / 3 betting / getting it in much better than playing for a checkraise. If I was in your spot I'd be looking to get as much money in on the flop as possible.

because with 160k stack he can call 24k (ie 14 more) with very good implied odds to hit his draw (he is calling 14 into 46k) - thats why. The size of the villains stack is important to.

I dont want him to just call. Ok you could argue that he is only going to see 1 card. However, if the scare card comes (which wasnt his) and you check, he gets the free shot at the river.

I am very happy to get it all in here. Calling the 35k would be a mathematical error - calling the 24k - not so much!

I have told you my pref is to take down the 22k in the pot and add 1/3 to my stack!

Stop worrying about things like protection and avoiding outdraws and concentrate more on getting value from weaker holdings. Yeah sometimes, we'll get counterfeited / binked off on the turn. So what? Other times we'll get KQ / QJ / bottom two / the straight draw to give us value over another street.

If I had a hand where i thought i could extract max value then i would. If I held Q7 and the board came Q72 - i would happliy play like you suggest. This particular board smashes his range so hard that you simply dont know where you are if any A K J 9 8 7. That for all intents and purposes is half the deck. So, half the deck against the odds of 3:1 and the implied odds of the rest of your stack just isnt worth it in this scenario (against good or bad players).

[TightEnd]

turned into a fascinating thread, ty everyone.

[AlexMartin]

since when has a checkraise meant 2 pair+? seriously we should be bluffing here a chunk of the time and playing a lot of draws like this too.

celtic, did he actually show you bottom 2? with your own eyes. If so sick laydown, but terrible show imo.

[MANTIS01]

ok, i have had mixed views on this thread and elsewhere on the flop play, so, here is what happened next.

i check, as does the BB, the utg limper bets 2k (lol) cut off makes it 10k.. I ?

Raise and commit yourself here

there is circa 22k in the pot, so i would rasie to 30-35k and make it clear that you are going nowhere.

If they flat (which is terribad) - i open shove any turn card (with 4 outs FTW kinda worse case). Hopefully they donk reshove with AA/KK/AQ and you fade the outs.

Why would you want to do that? Think about that statement really hard, you'll benefit if you do.

Celtic, your raise size was too big. Making it 24k is better, that few K can sometimes make people believe that you can / might fold if they ship. It's a classy fold from villain, but you need to think about your overall game if he is able to fold here. Like, if situations were reversed, would you fold his hand to him? I think not.

fwiw, I like leading / 3 betting / getting it in much better than playing for a checkraise. If I was in your spot I'd be looking to get as much money in on the flop as possible.

because with 160k stack he can call 24k (ie 14 more) with very good implied odds to hit his draw (he is calling 14 into 46k) - thats why. The size of the villains stack is important to.

I dont want him to just call. Ok you could argue that he is only going to see 1 card. However, if the scare card comes (which wasnt his) and you check, he gets the free shot at the river.

I am very happy to get it all in here. Calling the 35k would be a mathematical error - calling the 24k - not so much!

I have told you my pref is to take down the 22k in the pot and add 1/3 to my stack!

Stop worrying about things like protection and avoiding outdraws and concentrate more on getting value from weaker holdings. Yeah sometimes, we'll get counterfeited / binked off on the turn. So what? Other times we'll get KQ / QJ / bottom two / the straight draw to give us value over another street.

If I had a hand where i thought i could extract max value then i would. If I held Q7 and the board came Q72 - i would happliy play like you suggest. This particular board smashes his range so hard that you simply dont know where you are if any A K J 9 8 7. That for all intents and purposes is half the deck. So, half the deck against the odds of 3:1 and the implied odds of the rest of your stack just isnt worth it in this scenario (against good or bad players).

Because we're all pretty card smart...when a flop comes down we automatically know where the danger lies. However if you account for every eventuality you will be over-egging the cake imo. If we go to the turn giving our oppo half the deck we will be putting ourelves at a serious disadvantage. Your oppo only has 2 cards so wont/can't need every card you've tagged as dangerous here. That's if he's drawing at all. It's obv raising the flop will be more attractive to you if you fear all those cards. But IF a 6 comes he MUST hold 8-9...IF a 9 comes he MUST have K-J. This all becomes more specific than half the deck makes you a loser.

The fold is decent. But it looks better than it is because Celtic has to make that move with 1 pair or less for villain to be wrong. Does Celtic make that move with such holdings? We can all aspire to do that..and sometimes we may...but when you're actually sitting there it's a tougher ask than saying you would on the forum. So by playing the hand this way you give villain every excuse to fold. However, if you weak lead the turn...but make your body language strong...and pad the smallish bet with low denom chips you give quality villain some stuff to break down...small bet trying to look strong etc...and you give him much more of an excuse to think he's ahead than raising the re-raise on the flop. Agree with Tighty thou, great hand to discuss.