What sort of job is poker?

[DaveShoelace]

I sat at a heads up cash table last night and ran really good, ok I played alright but mostly I was on the right side of coldish decks. This morning I did think about the other guy a bit, thinking how shit it's felt when I'm in that position, and how it's possible that money maybe meant something to him, he was down on his luck and decided to spin up the little he had left, etc. Ok my pain for him (ahem) is tempered by the fact that he was trying to do the same to me.
In how many other 'professions' does your gain only come at another's direct expense? Stock daytrading is one...

I'm not so happy with that scenario. I don't just want to get paid in £££, I'd rather contribute something to people and society a bit.

Good post.......you probably shouldnt play heads up cash though if thats your viewpoint 

[Claw75]

I couldn't play poker for a living.  Besides not being good or disciplined enough, I think the minute I had to start treating it like a job rather than a hobby would take all the fun out of it for me. That said, if I had a large enough bankroll to comfortably take the downswings, then I imagine there must be worse ways to make a living.  The trouble I'm having at the moment is finding work to let me fund my hobby, I'm without both at the moment!

[thetank]

Real job ftw every time.

Unless you're sick good and can pretty much guarantee that you'll make at least six figures Sterling per year from the game, I don't think the financial rewards from grinding justify the not having a proper career and all the other negative things about playing pro poker.

[ripple11]

Always remember at a poker training session, when Dave Colclough was asked for this best advise on being a poker player.........


"Have a job as well !"

[RichardL]

Watching the players arrive at Walsall this weekend I  wondered at the mentality of people turning up for 'work', paying for the privilge and grinding it out for hours on end with no guarantee of a pay day. Ask your postman to turn up for work without pay and see what happens.

The profession of poker is shared with amateurs who also hold down a day job and in their spare time roll up to pit their skill against the pro's.

What other professions do this?  You can't go to the dentist and get treated by the amateur who just works weekends, but has read a book and seen some dentistry on tv and thinks he might be quite good at it. I can only think of one mix between pros and amateurs; non league football vs the league teams. Anyone got other examples?

Who has the advantage? The pro or amateur? The amateur because the outcome isn't so much life and death just because they have a pay day at the end of the week, or the pro because he has had sleep and hasn't fitted in this tournament between other full time work and taking the kids to school?

As I watched the old school players playing for their tournament life I realised this is all they know, being gamblers they accept the uncertain payday and lifestyle without question, they haven't gone out and got a 'job' to help ends meet,they just keep grinding it out and keep hoping the cards will fall favourably. Every day, day after day, always uncertain. Some of them for over fourty or fifty years.

Is it resilience or madness?

Good post, I would say the points you raised are why you should always wait untill you are financially secure for an extended peroid of time before going 'Pro' (i.e. have 6-12 months living expenses away from poker).

It also helps relieve pressure to have some sort of back up plan, whether that be an effective degree, some sort of training, or anything else which would help you get a decent job.

[RichardL]

The word 'professional' is the most misused word we use in the game, some people make plenty of money, their only income in fact, from poker but are not really 'professional' at all. To me a 'professional' poker player will be someone who carefully picks what games they play and calculates what their edge is in them, manages their travel expenses well, conduct themselves like a gent at the tables win lose or draw and then studies and reviews the hands they played after the tournament, win lose or draw.

But most 'pros' turn up to whatever game is on that weekend, splash their cash around, moan about bad beats, jump into the first cash game they can find when they bust out (making a quick trip to the bar or the roulette table on their way) and find reasons to explain why they were 'right' to have gone out of the tournament the way they did rather than soul search at what lessons could be learnt.

Dont get me wrong, very talented players many of them and will do very well, just I haven't met that many professional players who genuinely appear to treat the game like a day in the office.

Others are just unemployed but do ok at poker at the moment.

This is a great post imo.

And this sort of attitude is basically why alot of players will tend to have nothing to show for their undoubted technical poker skills.

I rate a poker player on the basis of all the things mentioned above, and if someone is really talented, but is always flat broke because they lack self control and play games they cant beat, then they are fish - just like the guy who just learnt the game and donks off his £50 a week that he has spare from his regular job.

Sadly, i feel the reason alot of profesionals act in an unproffesional manner by playing games they cant afford/beat, and splashing the cash when they travel to live tournaments (when they could be alot more sensible and actually turn a far higher profit for the trip by travelling in a smarter way, or taking a cheaper hotel room) is because they need to protect their image. They need everyone to see this ultra successful poker player. It is really pathetic, and personally i dont care if people think i am broke or a pussy, if i dont feel comfortable playing a certain game then i wont do it. If i go to a hotel, i will try and get a cheap deal to increase the profitabilty of the trip, regardless of whether another poker player is in the penthouse suite getting respect from his fellow players

Bit of a jumbled ramble but i am tired so forgive me

[GreekStein]

The word 'professional' is the most misused word we use in the game, some people make plenty of money, their only income in fact, from poker but are not really 'professional' at all. To me a 'professional' poker player will be someone who carefully picks what games they play and calculates what their edge is in them, manages their travel expenses well, conduct themselves like a gent at the tables win lose or draw and then studies and reviews the hands they played after the tournament, win lose or draw.

But most 'pros' turn up to whatever game is on that weekend, splash their cash around, moan about bad beats, jump into the first cash game they can find when they bust out (making a quick trip to the bar or the roulette table on their way) and find reasons to explain why they were 'right' to have gone out of the tournament the way they did rather than soul search at what lessons could be learnt.

Dont get me wrong, very talented players many of them and will do very well, just I haven't met that many professional players who genuinely appear to treat the game like a day in the office.

Others are just unemployed but do ok at poker at the moment.

This is a great post imo.

And this sort of attitude is basically why alot of players will tend to have nothing to show for their undoubted technical poker skills.

I rate a poker player on the basis of all the things mentioned above, and if someone is really talented, but is always flat broke because they lack self control and play games they cant beat, then they are fish - just like the guy who just learnt the game and donks off his £50 a week that he has spare from his regular job.

Sadly, i feel the reason alot of profesionals act in an unproffesional manner by playing games they cant afford/beat, and splashing the cash when they travel to live tournaments (when they could be alot more sensible and actually turn a far higher profit for the trip by travelling in a smarter way, or taking a cheaper hotel room) is because they need to protect their image. They need everyone to see this ultra successful poker player. It is really pathetic, and personally i dont care if people think i am broke or a pussy, if i dont feel comfortable playing a certain game then i wont do it. If i go to a hotel, i will try and get a cheap deal to increase the profitabilty of the trip, regardless of whether another poker player is in the penthouse suite getting respect from his fellow players

Bit of a jumbled ramble but i am tired so forgive me

This is also an impressive post from someone who has made enough from poker to own the hotel and the penthouse suite.

[RichardL]

The word 'professional' is the most misused word we use in the game, some people make plenty of money, their only income in fact, from poker but are not really 'professional' at all. To me a 'professional' poker player will be someone who carefully picks what games they play and calculates what their edge is in them, manages their travel expenses well, conduct themselves like a gent at the tables win lose or draw and then studies and reviews the hands they played after the tournament, win lose or draw.

But most 'pros' turn up to whatever game is on that weekend, splash their cash around, moan about bad beats, jump into the first cash game they can find when they bust out (making a quick trip to the bar or the roulette table on their way) and find reasons to explain why they were 'right' to have gone out of the tournament the way they did rather than soul search at what lessons could be learnt.

Dont get me wrong, very talented players many of them and will do very well, just I haven't met that many professional players who genuinely appear to treat the game like a day in the office.

Others are just unemployed but do ok at poker at the moment.

This is a great post imo.

And this sort of attitude is basically why alot of players will tend to have nothing to show for their undoubted technical poker skills.

I rate a poker player on the basis of all the things mentioned above, and if someone is really talented, but is always flat broke because they lack self control and play games they cant beat, then they are fish - just like the guy who just learnt the game and donks off his £50 a week that he has spare from his regular job.

Sadly, i feel the reason alot of profesionals act in an unproffesional manner by playing games they cant afford/beat, and splashing the cash when they travel to live tournaments (when they could be alot more sensible and actually turn a far higher profit for the trip by travelling in a smarter way, or taking a cheaper hotel room) is because they need to protect their image. They need everyone to see this ultra successful poker player. It is really pathetic, and personally i dont care if people think i am broke or a pussy, if i dont feel comfortable playing a certain game then i wont do it. If i go to a hotel, i will try and get a cheap deal to increase the profitabilty of the trip, regardless of whether another poker player is in the penthouse suite getting respect from his fellow players

Bit of a jumbled ramble but i am tired so forgive me

This is also an impressive post from someone who has made enough from poker to own the hotel and the penthouse suite.

lol, one day i hope. But alas, that day is along way off. Its probably more likely that i will be sleeping rough in the doorway of the hotel begging from the guy in the penthouse suite in a few years

[Kev B]

Good post GreekStein so true.

I agree with Claire, I look forward to a game of poker as a hobby too. If I did it for a living what would I do for a hobby.

I love the fact that you can get into large comps on the cheap as I did last night. (obviously thinly disguised "I won a seat " post). €30 sat gets me into the €110 super sat and in October I'm off to Killarney to play with the big boys in the Laddies festival. You can't do that in many other sports/hobbies now can you.

[AndrewT]

Intereting posts these, particularly DaveShoelace's.

The simple truth is that a lot of 'professional' live poker players are people who are just degen gamblers who managed to get by in the days before internet poker because few live poker players really knew what they were doing, meaning they could survive even with their spins on the wheel of death or whatever.

Now either the internet kidz are taking all their monies or these guys can actually beat the game but have no bankroll to withstand variance.

Proper job +  poker on the side (+ staking board ) FTW.

[Junior Senior]

Poker for me is a hobby and one that I love. Like work I think if you learn to do it well and continue to learn the results will come.
 

+1

From the age of like 17-21 if you'd have asked me what I wanted to do for a living I would have said nothing but poker because until recently I haven't had some of the skills needed (bankroll management/tilt issues etc) to be successful at the game this never happened for me. I was fixated on being a poker pro. Things have changed a lot since then.

This year I expect to make about £20-30k profit from online poker (should be more but I've pissed away plenty on table games in the early part of the year). Considering this is tax free, without other investments its more than I'll make from my job after working for a year. I wouldn't even consider packing up my job even if I was earning twice as much. This is not because of career prospects of moving up the ladder or even because I enjoy my job (I don't really - don't dislike it either mind). Why?

I think poker is a pretty unhealthy path.

How many poker 'pros' do you see round the table who have colour in their skin? How many look like they eat healthily and get regular exercise? Not many.

How many have pensions, own their homes and make financial provisions for the future (not just where their next buy in is going to come from)? Not many.

How many even look like they've had sex in the last gajillion years? Not many.

Part of the problem is that there is a glorious image made of poker and poker players when the reality of it all is masked. 80% of these so called pros in the are busto more often than not. It's a sad sight when you see 60 year old men and supposedly reputable people waiting for people to get up in cash games to nip them and people constantly scrounging of others just to stay in the game. For every Flushy or Moorman there's 20 people who do their spuds on the game and have no prospects. Even many of the sponsored pros have nothing. For every Thewy there's another 5 guys who owe money to casinos and are up to their eyeballs in debts. I could tell lots of stories about individuals that would surprise a lot of people but it's unfair and irresponsible to mention names but it would paint one hell of a different picture than the poker media does.

If it all goes tits up for a pro...what next? 'Excuse me mr employer I haven't done a job since I was 19 because I've been busy in casinos'. [  ] We'll be in touch.

In short I think a lot of people, like me, should be happy to have poker as a hobby. Without any financial pressure or need to win I enjoy the game a lot more. Luckily I'm a casual player who wins but I wasn't always a winner and if I wasn't I would still be more than happy to invest a few thousand each year into poker because of my love for the game. I think those who play for a living should really consider whether what they are doing is right for them before it's too late.

excellent post... one of many on this thread!

[boldie]

I tried this doing nothing but play poker for a while.
[ ] I was good enough
[ ] I liked playing poker after 2 months
[ ] I will try it again.

Poker as a hobby can be frustrating enough..I don't need the grief FT.

Horsies FTW for me.

[dousche]

as far as the 'professional' debate is concerned i think people are getting the two different meanings of the word confused. professional (noun) - earning the majority of their income from the game and professional (verb, ie acting professionally) - which is a judgement on an individuals attitude and behaviour. its possible to be either, both or none imo.

personally, as far as going full time professional is concerned, i think you need a passion for the game that you cant measure without trying FT and a staking/sponsorship deal to help with the crazy variance

just my 2 cents

[G1BTW]

I used to be a professional poker player, but I gave up when boldie packed it in.

I was playing my usual nosebleed stakes cash game last night (if you bang your face off the keyboard enough...) and I saw this guy make an amazing call on the river with bottom pair, for quite a lot of money really. 'Er...great call' came the gracious chatbox cry from the loser (terrible call at the right time). The winner's reply was brief yet beautiful.. 'Pro'. Loser, not quite so gracious: "Prostitute?"

[Horneris]

This sure is a great thread for someone who left their job 5 weeks ago, and has just got back from Vegas eager to start their new career as a professional online poker player.

Financially i should be ok, coz i have a comfortable enough amount in the bank and am staked by a good friend for Poker as we all know, but its health aspects that im more worried about.

Want to get into a routine of getting up for 1/2pmish everyday then having a few hours where i can go to the gym or play tennis or watch the racing or see family or whatever before hitting the tourns from 6pm - midnight or later.

Might struggle to maintain that tho.