river. Call?fold

[daviebhoy]

The heart flush got there so only 1 missed flush draw.

I check/call river here. He can float turn here with 2 flush draws out there and look to represent one of them when they hit.

Very tough spot. It looks like his hand is exactly 55 - possibly 44 or 66. There are many more total bluffs that can play the hand this way.

[action man]

still think bet/folding the river is better than c/c...
if i had a crystal ball i probs c/c, but i think after checking the flop we have to bet the river, our hand is under-repped imo and looks as much like A2 than A6
after checking back the flop, hich makes it a litte more possible that villain is bluff shoving, but i still think this is unlikly.

[Royal Flush]

People saying check call are off their rockers imo, we have the "not non nut" hand if you will, its the best hand you can have that you dont want to get it in with.

[daviebhoy]

People saying check call are off their rockers imo, we have the "not non nut" hand if you will, its the best hand you can have that you dont want to get it in with.

Check-call lets many more hands we beat put more money in and we get to see a showdown. We leave ourselves completely exploitable by bet/folding but lose value to what ? Ax usually bets flop when checked to him. 77/88 maybe.

[AlexMartin]

People saying check call are off their rockers imo, we have the "not non nut" hand if you will, its the best hand you can have that you dont want to get it in with.

+1 and normally i dont agree with James and all his if you dont want y to happen dont do x but hes spot on here. This hand illustrates relative hand strength, which means without history, he has to be bluffing something like 35-50% (cant be arsed) and i really dont think your average mtt grinder doesnt make such high-variance plays with such frequency.

 There is next to know chance this guy is valuejamming AQ and a slim chance of AK given stack depth and that old chestnut about only getting called by a better hand.

mtt grinders dont rangemerge river jamming ranges, its unneccesary fps.

Nuts or air, i say quads.

[outragous76]

those who dont advoctae the check call - and this is a genuine question on a 'learning thread' - i dont get it.

Lets say he bets the 3k on the end and you call and lose - well surely that is better than bet folding the 3k ?? All you can do by bet folding is assume you were beat? - No?

I understand that you are trying to get value from worse - but surely there is as much value in letting him bluff at a missed hand as there is in getting him to call light? Surely the only hand he is calling your bet with is like an AJ AT type hand?

[MC]

The heart flush got there so only 1 missed flush draw.

Shit I missed this, that makes it quite a clear fold then for me then...

I see nothing wrong with check calling. Ok we might lose a bit of value from a better Ace, but surely that's countered by the times he takes a stab at the pot?

Leading for value is fine, I just prefer c/c

[AlexMartin]

those who dont advoctae the check call - and this is a genuine question on a 'learning thread' - i dont get it.

Lets say he bets the 3k on the end and you call and lose - well surely that is better than bet folding the 3k ?? All you can do by bet folding is assume you were beat? - No?

I understand that you are trying to get value from worse - but surely there is as much value in letting him bluff at a missed hand as there is in getting him to call light? Surely the only hand he is calling your bet with is like an AJ AT type hand?

We have rivered a super strong hand. We want value. Given that we have checked the flop to get value from worse, i think vbet the river is far better than check call and pray he bluffs a busted draw given our hand looks like air a chunk. I have absolutely no problem with bet folding the river. Infact, i think bet folding is a perfectly fine line against standard opposition, unlike a lot of posters here.

[daviebhoy]

I don't have any major problem with bet/folding the river. I just don't see it as significantly better than check/call. Villain most likely has a monster here or complete air so I play it passively and get bluffed less often.

[outragous76]

I don't have any major problem with bet/folding the river. I just don't see it as significantly better than check/call. Villain most likely has a monster here or complete air so I play it passively and get bluffed less often.

this is what i am trying to get to - flushy and alex make c/c sound terribad - however the spot seems so marginal how can it be?

You cant call the raise if you bet on the end - but yet you would put the same number of chips in on a check call? I just dont see how bet/folding is a far superior play like it is being made out. I dont have a problem with it (im assuming we think that he never raise bluffs here) - but as for far superior -   i  just cant see it.

[T_Mar]

I don't have any major problem with bet/folding the river. I just don't see it as significantly better than check/call. Villain most likely has a monster here or complete air so I play it passively and get bluffed less often.

Check calling just means you getting value towned a whole lot more (which is worse than folding the best hand a very small % of the time)  I think his  betting range on the river is weighted heavily to hands that beat ours - marginal hands that we beat will check back alot of the time, which is where we miss value by not betting

He's not bluffing often enough for you to have to worry about being blown off the best hand

[outragous76]

but if you bet fold you are kinda turning your hand into a bluff - when you have a hand with perfectly good show down value -

so what if it goes check check - too much of a marginal spot to say you lost value if you are prepared to bet fold. There is already a perfectly good pot to scoop

[George2Loose]

I think villian is checking a lot of his range which is why we want to try and get value out of the hand.

Agree that he never takes this like with a good ace either

Nuts or air.

Shocked if he doesn't have 55 or 44

[Royal Flush]

I don't have any major problem with bet/folding the river. I just don't see it as significantly better than check/call. Villain most likely has a monster here or complete air so I play it passively and get bluffed less often.

Check calling just means you getting value towned a whole lot more (which is worse than folding the best hand a very small % of the time)  I think his  betting range on the river is weighted heavily to hands that beat ours - marginal hands that we beat will check back alot of the time, which is where we miss value by not betting

He's not bluffing often enough for you to have to worry about being blown off the best hand

Save me writing a reply, he isnt betting a lot of Ax on the river, he is however calling it.

If he had a draw i would expect him to have fired the turn.

[AlexMartin]

I think villian is checking a lot of his range which is why we want to try and get value out of the hand.

Agree that he never takes this like with a good ace either

Nuts or air.

Shocked if he doesn't have 55 or 44

+1

His calling range is wide, his betting range is v narrow. Against mostl opponents, the risk of being bluffraised on the river is much more insignificant than the enormous reward we get by betting and getting called by worse.