Another ruling!

[#1Instigator]

Can someone post this rule, I'm not sure if I'm being daft as everyone seems to know of this rule, bar me. Most rules I've read, allows players that are still active in the pot to make comments. I'm not agreeing that this is right, but I'm trying to address that these issues are very hard to deal with and a solution should be found worldwide and implimented. Most poker dealers do not have a thorough understanding of the game so its very hard for them to enforce or protect players if they don't actually know why these things are wrong.
Also I believe there are far more serious things a player can do to gain an advantage and often do, and they get away with it.
Again, the allin player could gain or lose an advantage depending on his hand strength or result, the player that said he might not be calling might be lying.
I am one that thinks everyone should be able to do anything within the rules to gather information. So I was for, allowing to show cards (one or both), be able to say what hands you've got, be able to interogate your opponents obviously not used in collusion purposes.

[david3103]

http://www.lasvegasvegas.com/poker/chapter15.php

By participating in any tournament, you agree to abide by the rules and behave in a courteous manner. A violator may be verbally warned, suspended from play for a specified length of time, or disqualified from the tournament. Chips from a disqualified participant will be removed from play. Players, whether in the hand or not, may not discuss the hands until the action is complete. Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Discussing cards discarded or hand possibilities is not allowed. A penalty may be given for discussion of hands during the play

[Simon Galloway]

Can someone post this rule,

Apart from the rule being posted, just have a think about how you would feel if you were the big blind - it doesn't have to be just speech.

1) Whilst the UTG player is deliberating, the SB goes to the toilet.  Now the UTG player realises that SB isn't calling, and makes a thin call.  Part of the value you had as BB squeezing has now been taken away from you.  Happy?

2)"Let's just both call and check this down."  By your terms, that's ok because one or the other might only be joking and planning to double cross.  As BB, are you happy?

3) The important distinction has been made before, but just to ram it home, when h/u there is no third party left to give an unfair advantage to or take an unfair advantage from.  I am ok with a speech, exposing a card, little bit of a moody - although some cardrooms aren't.  It does get painful when someone who has seen it on TV once overdoes it, but it is VERY DIFFERENT if you start discussing what might be in your hand to someone else.  If you are BB and what they said might have been their hand does turn out to be their hand (funnily enough) are you happy that you now got that thin call based on reassurance that their cards were extra live?

4) The SB holds his cards forward in "ready to fold" mode.  He hasn't acted out of turn yet, but he might as well have.  He is trying to give the UTG the extra information he needs that the SB won't re-jam over the top or otherwise get in the way.  As BB, are you happy?  You shouldn't be.

5) If the UTG player thinks out loud that he might have suited middle connectors and the SB replies out loud that he might be folding and that suited connectors might be 37% against a typical  squeeze range and the pot might be laying the UTG player 6/4 on the call - as BB are you happy? 

Have the SB and UTG player done anything wrong yet?

[BulldozerD]

HU the speech play stuff is fine.

Its because a third party in the hand is being comprimised where the problem is, you have a responsibility to other players in the hand. Here BB is clearly compromised.

[Cf]

HU the speech play stuff is fine.

Its because a third party in the hand is being comprimised where the problem is, you have a responsibility to other players in the hand. Here BB is clearly compromised.

Even HU there is a limit to what you can do. There is a difference between simply being HU in a hand, and HU in the tournament.

So, revealing hands, showing cards, etc. HU in a pot - NOT fine - you have a responsibility to protect the other players in the tournament.

If the tournament is heads up though, revealing cards, etc, is fine. Just the two of you left, do what you like. (to a certain extent obv)

[BulldozerD]

i know there is a difference.

however i am unsure how showing cards (to everyone) whilst HU in a pot is compromising anyone else in the tournament (other than making yourself look like a tit).

[kinboshi]

i know there is a difference.

however i am unsure how showing cards (to everyone) whilst HU in a pot is compromising anyone else in the tournament (other than making yourself look like a tit).

Unlike a cash game, the outcome of a hand you aren't directly involved in does affect you in a tournament.  Here's a clear example - you're on the bubble and are the second shortest stack, the short stack is all in and there's only one person left in the hand.  If someone says something to suggest to the player to fold (or call), or cards are shown, then it affects you. 

[BulldozerD]

i know there is a difference.

however i am unsure how showing cards (to everyone) whilst HU in a pot is compromising anyone else in the tournament (other than making yourself look like a tit).

Unlike a cash game, the outcome of a hand you aren't directly involved in does affect you in a tournament.  Here's a clear example - you're on the bubble and are the second shortest stack, the short stack is all in and there's only one person left in the hand.  If someone says something to suggest to the player to fold (or call), or cards are shown, then it affects you. 

in your example there are 3 players involved in the hand though so same principle as OP applies. If the BB is left to act and tries to get information as to how strong the short stack is by asking him a question, that isn't compromising anyone else imo. But if a folded player tries to encourage BB to call then he is out of order.

[Cf]

Slightly clearer case:

We're on bubble. You're second short stack.

Short stack pushes.

All fold to the big blind, who's not sure whether to call or not. Short stack for whatever reason decides to show that he has AA, and doesn't want to be outdrawn. BB, who had 44 now decides to fold, when otherwise he'd have probably called. Here's the catch tho: on this particular hand there'd have been a 4 on the flop. The short stack, in the act of showing his cards, has prevented the bubble bursting and hurt every other player in the tournament.

[pokerfan]

Slightly clearer case:

We're on bubble. You're second short stack.

Short stack pushes.

All fold to the big blind, who's not sure whether to call or not. Short stack for whatever reason decides to show that he has AA, and doesn't want to be outdrawn. BB, who had 44 now decides to fold, when otherwise he'd have probably called. Here's the catch tho: on this particular hand there'd have been a 4 on the flop. The short stack, in the act of showing his cards, has prevented the bubble bursting and hurt every other player in the tournament.

4 on the flop, lol wtf ?

[kinboshi]

i know there is a difference.

however i am unsure how showing cards (to everyone) whilst HU in a pot is compromising anyone else in the tournament (other than making yourself look like a tit).

Unlike a cash game, the outcome of a hand you aren't directly involved in does affect you in a tournament.  Here's a clear example - you're on the bubble and are the second shortest stack, the short stack is all in and there's only one person left in the hand.  If someone says something to suggest to the player to fold (or call), or cards are shown, then it affects you. 

in your example there are 3 players involved in the hand though so same principle as OP applies. If the BB is left to act and tries to get information as to how strong the short stack is by asking him a question, that isn't compromising anyone else imo. But if a folded player tries to encourage BB to call then he is out of order.

Eh?  There's two people in the hand.  No one else needs to interfere but any showing of cards or revealing verbally what they have from either player affects you.

[BulldozerD]

in this case the player has exposed his cards and has not undertaken speech play though, i thought exposing cards in tournament was an offence in itself (well i know it is in alot of cardrooms anyway). If the all in player said he had aces or said he was huge that would be a different matter - in my opinion.

[Cf]

Slightly clearer case:

We're on bubble. You're second short stack.

Short stack pushes.

All fold to the big blind, who's not sure whether to call or not. Short stack for whatever reason decides to show that he has AA, and doesn't want to be outdrawn. BB, who had 44 now decides to fold, when otherwise he'd have probably called. Here's the catch tho: on this particular hand there'd have been a 4 on the flop. The short stack, in the act of showing his cards, has prevented the bubble bursting and hurt every other player in the tournament.

4 on the flop, lol wtf ?

It's obviously a slightly contrived example. But the point is, even in a heads up pot, you cannot reveal information about your hand, whether this is verbally or physically declaring it. You can't agree to check hands down. You can't agree to "keep it friendly" (i hear that one a lot :/). Etc. By doing so you are potentially damaging everyone else in the tournament.

[BulldozerD]

i know there is a difference.

however i am unsure how showing cards (to everyone) whilst HU in a pot is compromising anyone else in the tournament (other than making yourself look like a tit).

Unlike a cash game, the outcome of a hand you aren't directly involved in does affect you in a tournament.  Here's a clear example - you're on the bubble and are the second shortest stack, the short stack is all in and there's only one person left in the hand.  If someone says something to suggest to the player to fold (or call), or cards are shown, then it affects you. 

in your example there are 3 players involved in the hand though so same principle as OP applies. If the BB is left to act and tries to get information as to how strong the short stack is by asking him a question, that isn't compromising anyone else imo. But if a folded player tries to encourage BB to call then he is out of order.

Eh?  There's two people in the hand.  No one else needs to interfere but any showing of cards or revealing verbally what they have from either player affects you.

i thought your example was where someone was encouraging BB to fold. Sorry if i got confused - i agree totally about showing cards.

I do understand what you mean btw but as a player who is all in i would try and get people to fold purely out of self interest, not to prejudice other people in the tournament. In the OP, the SB's response isn't going to affect what he does because he is folding but assists another player in making a decision that affects the other players.

I probably haven't explained this well at all.

[BulldozerD]

Slightly clearer case:

We're on bubble. You're second short stack.

Short stack pushes.

All fold to the big blind, who's not sure whether to call or not. Short stack for whatever reason decides to show that he has AA, and doesn't want to be outdrawn. BB, who had 44 now decides to fold, when otherwise he'd have probably called. Here's the catch tho: on this particular hand there'd have been a 4 on the flop. The short stack, in the act of showing his cards, has prevented the bubble bursting and hurt every other player in the tournament.

4 on the flop, lol wtf ?

It's obviously a slightly contrived example. But the point is, even in a heads up pot, you cannot reveal information about your hand, whether this is verbally or physically declaring it. You can't agree to check hands down. You can't agree to "keep it friendly" (i hear that one a lot :/). Etc. By doing so you are potentially damaging everyone else in the tournament.

I agree with this to some extent but why would you play a pot with the intention of checking it down, unless someone else was all in?