DTD £150 f/o hand, facing a shove on the flop.

[StuartHopkin]

Think this hand is pretty standard but just got me thinking a little about why certain hands would be played like this.

9 handed
300/600/50 average stack about 15k
Im playing 13k villain playing about 23k

Villain has been active and opening a lot of pots and getting most bets through easily
I will reserve my thoughts on him, as I seem to be thinking the same about everyone at the mo, but I think Girgy knows him and may be able to add something.

Villain opens to 1600 UTG+2
Hero looks down at  and raises to 4100
Everyone else folds

Flop comes 

Sure was happy to see the ace, villain shoves

Whats my action here?

[salfi]

when ever i hero call here they show me the ace. but dont stop me from keep making these calls. one day il be shown j10.
im really not sure what the right line is as a c/r is the play ude expect with the ace and why would any1 just donk to the raiser with it.  but in all my memorys of this type of spot they always have it .

[StuartHopkin]

when ever i hero call here they show me the ace. but dont stop me from keep making these calls. one day il be shown j10.
im really not sure what the right line is as a c/r is the play ude expect with the ace and why would any1 just donk to the raiser with it.  but in all my memorys of this type of spot they always have it .

This is summing up my question.
If he has flatted me with AK AQ AJ what does he think im calling with?
If he has AA i assume he checks it to me so i can hang myself
If he has KK what a spew the shove would be

I just cant understand what hand you would play like this if you had a nonce of sense?!

Lol

[salfi]

sense and poker isnt hand in hand.  happened to me last week some guy i three bet flats oop 2/3 of his stack the flop ace brick brick. he shoves flop with his ak and i have to call with my qq. stack sizes in your case where a little different but that in my oppinion makes it more retarded.
 might be a move but it just seams weird.
no hand makes sense does it?
 i guessing u fold cause im the only one who ever seams to make these calls . i think they shove thinking i look bluffy i wil be called by jj qq kk etc.
i always call anyway i just like watching there faces light up while they scoop my chips   makes them so happy how could i not pay them off im a nice guy like that

[StuartHopkin]

sense and poker isnt hand in hand.  happened to me last week some guy i three bet flats oop 2/3 of his stack the flop ace brick brick. he shoves flop with his ak and i have to call with my qq. stack sizes in your case where a little different but that in my oppinion makes it more retarded.
 might be a move but it just seams weird.
no hand makes sense does it?
 i guessing u fold cause im the only one who ever seams to make these calls . i think they shove thinking i look bluffy i wil be called by jj qq kk etc.
i always call anyway i just like watching there faces light up while they scoop my chips   makes them so happy how could i not pay them off im a nice guy like that

Lol
Great post Salfi, will do the reveal when a few more people respond but glad to see your thinking is the same as mine.
And your right about the stack sizes, if he is hit then he should defo check it to me cus theres like 9k in the middle and I have 9k behind, I shove sooooo wide here if he checks. If he has a decent ace he snaps, if he has ace rag what the hell is he doing flatting my 3 bet?

Take it no one has a problem with the raise pre, Im happy with the pot as it stood, and Im raising for value 90% of the time.

[EvilPie]

Fist pump snap please.

Pretend you were ordering a valet when he shows an ace.

A lot here depends on what villain thinks of you. He's got you out chipped and will be very much still in if he loses. He could easily pick up 10k here if you're a weak ass who passes when he sees an ace.

Perhaps he fancied a gamble. He puts you on AK or a decent pair. He shoves any flop knowing that you pass AK if there's no A and a pair if there's an over card. For him it's a 50 50 and he knows whatever happens he can't get knocked out.

Tough spot but I'm not passing here unless I know oppo is tight as a tight things tight bits.

[BulldozerD]

thing is I know i would always check to the re-raiser if i am going to felt with Ax (or better) here but i often fall into the trap of judging villains by my own standards.

I mean i can't understand what he would logically do it with that beats you, so when i think like this i call (and often look daft)

board has no flush draw but i guess he could have TJ or some crap if he is playing really loose and free as described.

meh - i'd call it off

[Cf]

Such a strange bet. Stack sizes as they are means if he checks to you then you'll surely be shoving. He doesn't need to get complicated here, the pot as it is, and following the pf 3-bet, means if he's flopped a big hand all he needs to do is check, and he'll get the money in.

So wtf has he shoved for? Have to assume he's bluffing, or same as you, isn't happy to see that ace and is hoping you haven't got it. Maybe KK/QQ, or a raggy ace, but if he has one of these hands, why shove? You're only calling if you beat him, so he'd be better to check and call your shove.

Meh. I dunno. Call and sigh when he turns over the winning hand I guess.

Who was the villian? If Girgy knows him then I might too.

[StuartHopkin]

Fist pump snap please.

Pretend you were ordering a valet when he shows an ace.

A lot here depends on what villain thinks of you. He's got you out chipped and will be very much still in if he loses. He could easily pick up 10k here if you're a weak ass who passes when he sees an ace.

Perhaps he fancied a gamble. He puts you on AK or a decent pair. He shoves any flop knowing that you pass AK if there's no A and a pair if there's an over card. For him it's a 50 50 and he knows whatever happens he can't get knocked out.

Tough spot but I'm not passing here unless I know oppo is tight as a tight things tight bits.

Defo wasnt tight
You really fist pumping?
I have the same feelings as others on here, looks like a call but when you make these calls they normally do have it.

What do you think he flatted my 3 bet with that makes you want to fist pump snap this off?

Are you thinking he has suited paint more often than not here? If so this a tez call pre surely with my stack size and the fact he may well be dominated?

Wheres Girgington? I want him on this thread cus he had some opinions on the break.

[StuartHopkin]

Such a strange bet. Stack sizes as they are means if he checks to you then you'll surely be shoving. He doesn't need to get complicated here, the pot as it is, and following the pf 3-bet, means if he's flopped a big hand all he needs to do is check, and he'll get the money in.

So wtf has he shoved for? Have to assume he's bluffing, or same as you, isn't happy to see that ace and is hoping you haven't got it. Maybe KK/QQ, or a raggy ace, but if he has one of these hands, why shove? You're only calling if you beat him, so he'd be better to check and call your shove.

Meh. I dunno. Call and sigh when he turns over the winning hand I guess.

Who was the villian? If Girgy knows him then I might too.

Yeah your thoughts are exactly the same as mine Cf

Girgy was in seat 6? I was in seat 4 and this guy was in seat 2?
Beige hoody bit of a stubble going on?
Mid 20's?

Someone spot Girgy and we will ask him!

[EvilPie]

What do you do if the over card is a K or a Q?

JJ is always likely to see an over card on the flop so raising 1/4 of your stack to pass to a shove if there's an overcard is pretty bad.

fwiw I don't think we can credit oppo with AK or AQ here. Surely he just shoves them pre unless he's shit.

He might have a weaker ace but if he has he's very bad and just got lucky.

The hand comes down to stack sizes for me. I can't ever put that much in the middle and then pass the flop. It's how I went out the 300. You raise for value rather than shove because you want a customer. The flop shouldn't matter. There's too much in the pot to pass now.

If you're passing to an overcard you should just shove pre imo. There's 2.5k in there already, just have that. As soon as you raise for value that's it, you're committed as far as i'm concerned.

[GreekStein]

The problem with playing against shit players is they do things that confuse the hell out of you and with no real reason or thought behind what and why they are doing them.

You'd think with an ace that he'd check the flop as you're so likely to bet/jam it that he's gotta call anyway instead of turning a made hand into a bluff. I therefore probably call and lose vs A4 soooooted.

[TheChipPrince]

I would fold more than call, but if there's some history we can certainly call sometimes...

[StuartHopkin]

What do you do if the over card is a K or a Q?

JJ is always likely to see an over card on the flop so raising 1/4 of your stack to pass to a shove if there's an overcard is pretty bad.

fwiw I don't think we can credit oppo with AK or AQ here. Surely he just shoves them pre unless he's shit.

He might have a weaker ace but if he has he's very bad and just got lucky.

The hand comes down to stack sizes for me. I can't ever put that much in the middle and then pass the flop. It's how I went out the 300. You raise for value rather than shove because you want a customer. The flop shouldn't matter. There's too much in the pot to pass now.

If you're passing to an overcard you should just shove pre imo. There's 2.5k in there already, just have that. As soon as you raise for value that's it, you're committed as far as i'm concerned.

I snap if there is K or Q............ i think.

About 60-70% of his range involves and A?
He may have AK or AQ or even KQ but its a lot less likely he has the K or Q than the A do you not think?

I know we keep having this argument about how everyone is terrible, but at the time I thought he AJ but didnt really discount A10o+ and A8s+

Live donks hate to laydown an ace!

Maybe the fact i think everyone I play against is a cabbage isnt helping my game.  

[salfi]

lol poker players who flat three bets then donk ace hi flops are cabbages