Hand Range

[MANTIS01]

lets break this down, raise folding the cream of your range shorthanded shortstacked against a good opponent is burning money. Sometimes he will have u crushed, but not often enough!

Agreed. But in addition to those points the strat of 6-6 man makes me wonder. Leading out into a player with a 4:1 chip deficit 5 handed at the ft is a pretty strong line to take with a set imo. I mean it's so strong Blatch is asking whether we can fold K-Q in this spot. I like that leading out with strength line but I don't know about it here. I mean unless Blatch has been very aggressive why does set man think Blatch is gonna play back at him? Blatch doesn't have the chips to float or get funky and it's gonna take big balls to raise with air. So really, leading with 6-6 only works vs the very thin end of Blatch's raising range. So if Blatch folds most of his range who can figure why villain leads with a set?

[outragous76]

lets break this down, raise folding the cream of your range shorthanded shortstacked against a good opponent is burning money. Sometimes he will have u crushed, but not often enough!

Agreed. But in addition to those points the strat of 6-6 man makes me wonder. Leading out into a player with a 4:1 chip deficit 5 handed at the ft is a pretty strong line to take with a set imo. I mean it's so strong Blatch is asking whether we can fold K-Q in this spot. I like that leading out with strength line but I don't know about it here. I mean unless Blatch has been very aggressive why does set man think Blatch is gonna play back at him? Blatch doesn't have the chips to float or get funky and it's gonna take big balls to raise with air. So really, leading with 6-6 only works vs the very thin end of Blatch's raising range. So if Blatch folds most of his range who can figure why villain leads with a set?

i think the only reasonable answer ot this is that he doesnt think there is enough money in the pot to come over the top all in (with a genuine hand), if he c/r the expected c-bet - so he decides to juice it?

[Blatch]

lets break this down, raise folding the cream of your range shorthanded shortstacked against a good opponent is burning money. Sometimes he will have u crushed, but not often enough!

Agreed. But in addition to those points the strat of 6-6 man makes me wonder. Leading out into a player with a 4:1 chip deficit 5 handed at the ft is a pretty strong line to take with a set imo. I mean it's so strong Blatch is asking whether we can fold K-Q in this spot. I like that leading out with strength line but I don't know about it here. I mean unless Blatch has been very aggressive why does set man think Blatch is gonna play back at him? Blatch doesn't have the chips to float or get funky and it's gonna take big balls to raise with air. So really, leading with 6-6 only works vs the very thin end of Blatch's raising range. So if Blatch folds most of his range who can figure why villain leads with a set?

Maybe im giving him too much credit (something I do to a lot of players) and maybe im over complicating things.  I said at the time that if he checks the flop I think we get it in on the flop very easily. 

He swears he had 66 and even told a mutual friend at the time who confirmed later he had 66, so I believe thats what he had.

[salfi]

well if it was a final table and he has the chip lead guess he figures due to icm u wont call without 10 10 or kk so makes it easy for him to set u in. maybe??. i havnt really thought bout the hnd to much cause basically when u put a guy on 1 hand AA i always call and say show me the hand. esp when there is other reasons why he might not have the hand he is repping. 

 i think u over thinking here and if u playin for the win playin shorthanded u cant put a guy on a super thin range cause people spaz out alot more then ude expect. maybe he didnt have 66 or maybe he did. maybe he had  the nuts and lied cause u folded when u looked commited and he felt he was gutted bout not gettin all ya chips. if u didnt see his hand ide never believe what they say anyway cause everyone lies.

[George2Loose]

well if it was a final table and he has the chip lead guess he figures due to icm u wont call without 10 10 or kk so makes it easy for him to set u in. maybe??. i havnt really thought bout the hnd to much cause basically when u put a guy on 1 hand AA i always call and say show me the hand. esp when there is other reasons why he might not have the hand he is repping. 

 i think u over thinking here and if u playin for the win playin shorthanded u cant put a guy on a super thin range cause people spaz out alot more then ude expect. maybe he didnt have 66 or maybe he did. maybe he had  the nuts and lied cause u folded when u looked commited and he felt he was gutted bout not gettin all ya chips. if u didnt see his hand ide never believe what they say anyway cause everyone lies.

Agree with a lot of this.

People do tend to spaz out esp. short handed.

he's bound to say he had a set- would you tell you opponent you had QJ?

[MANTIS01]

lets break this down, raise folding the cream of your range shorthanded shortstacked against a good opponent is burning money. Sometimes he will have u crushed, but not often enough!

Agreed. But in addition to those points the strat of 6-6 man makes me wonder. Leading out into a player with a 4:1 chip deficit 5 handed at the ft is a pretty strong line to take with a set imo. I mean it's so strong Blatch is asking whether we can fold K-Q in this spot. I like that leading out with strength line but I don't know about it here. I mean unless Blatch has been very aggressive why does set man think Blatch is gonna play back at him? Blatch doesn't have the chips to float or get funky and it's gonna take big balls to raise with air. So really, leading with 6-6 only works vs the very thin end of Blatch's raising range. So if Blatch folds most of his range who can figure why villain leads with a set?

Maybe im giving him too much credit (something I do to a lot of players) and maybe im over complicating things.  I said at the time that if he checks the flop I think we get it in on the flop very easily.  

He swears he had 66 and even told a mutual friend at the time who confirmed later he had 66, so I believe thats what he had.

I think you're definitely giving him too much credit for a hand. If you were giving him max credit as a player you would widen his range past one or two hands imo. This guy wants to win bad so will take risks. In the same way villain is maybe not giving you enough credit for a hand, but generally giving you max credit to be able to make a move/find a fold. So it's possible that both of you just fecked your respective hands/reads up a bit. If he's fecked it up and got max respect from tp folding oppo he prob would lie, and that lie generally wont change later. Yeah "I fecked up and lied" isn't a confession you necessarily want to make imo.

If you do commit to your hand and you win a 180k pot you get yourself into the mix of this game. You will have chips to raise which gives you a very good winning chance in this 5-handed game. If you fold you're down to 15bb's and hoping for a hand like K-Q to jam with. So there's a massive trade off there. And to make that trade you must be like 100% you're beat. With no actual read you think that's true just from the action alone.

FWIW I think the problem for you in this hand is your pessimistic attitude at the start. If villain hasn't called a raise from the blinds in 5 hrs he can call like 2% of his stack quite wide, especially with a golden image vs a thinking ss he can pressure. But for you immediately "alarm bells rang very loud". This attitude deffo leads you to play your hand too fast on the flop. And it leads you to force fit all villain's actions into this very small alarm bell ringing range that you've already decided he has. He simply doesn't need A-A to play a pot with you here. If you tweaked that attitude pre-flop and you see villain as dumb for wanting to play da Blatch in a pot oop and it's a great opportunity to double-up with a genuine raising hand you would see things differently when the K flops.

[810ofclubs]

actually neil i remember asking for your stack size BEFORE i even bet the flop and your reply was "about 60k" which made a significant difference as to how i then played the hand

chris on toby's account

100th post and i didnt even write it fml

[GreekStein]

What did you have Chris?

[titaniumbean]

Playing £550 final table with 5 left.

Blinds at 1500 / 3000 / 300

Cut off raises to 8200, SB flats.  This is the first hand that SB has flatted OOP on the final table out of a stack of around 280k.  Cut off is the curent short stack with around 81k after the raise.

Flop brings K,10,6 rainbow and SB leads for 11k fairly quickly.  Cut off raises to 27.8k.

What kind of hands do you put the cut off on?  Could he ever fold if you reshove?

I think it completely depends what the cut off thinks of the SB. If the SB thinks the CO opens a reasonable amount but then plays fit or fold post pretty much then bet-folding here is fine. Once the CO raises I think he is getting shoved on with KJ+ and QJ hands. Once the CO raises he really cant fold. FWIW even though the CO is the shortest stack he isn't that near to push fold mode and isn't in a position where he cant raise fold pre, so I don't think his pre-flop range has to be that tight.

I think he CO could easily have AA/AK some percentage of the time, considering he is calling out of the SB then the better he is the tighter his range is as he's calling 6700 not 5200 as it would be from BB. I don't think hands like suited Kings like K5 etc are in his range so pf his range is prob something like (22-88/AK-AT/KQ/KJ/QJ/JTs etc) Once CO raises the flop I think that he has 1 pair or is bluffing looking to fold thinking that he can never re-shove with a non v strong hand.

Considering that the board is rainbow I don't really see that many hands without any special dynamics being discussed that the CO really wants to raise the flop with. Unless he has a monster he wont like being jammed on, and if the SB is competent and could be lead folding with air then just calling gives him the opportunity to see your range as weaker and maybe continue to barrel depending on how the texture of the board runs out.

As played raise folding Kx seems horrible with this stack size. If CO calls the flop and turn is an offsuit deuce and he leads strong again I think you can make a much better judged fold because by going one street further I think we eliminate some percentage of the hands that he just lead the flop to try to take it down with. I'd be more tempted to call down on an Ace or a scare card rather than a blank I think.