3 handed, how does uber-shortie affect the move?

[MC]

$27 18-man tournament. 4 paid. 3 left.

Payout:
1st: $180
2nd: $135
3rd: $90
4th: $45

What's our move here on the button. We have only 9bbs but the shortie changes things a lot here right?

***** Hand History for Game 32285762959 ***** (Poker Stars)
Tourney Hand NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, August 31, 10:03:46 ET 2009
Table 191649094 1 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Seat 2: neil_rick ( $18258.00 USD )
Seat 4: nassauer3 ( $1405.00 USD )
Seat 7: epitomised ( $7337.00 USD )
neil_rick posts ante of [$50.00 USD].
nassauer3 posts ante of [$50.00 USD].
epitomised posts ante of [$50.00 USD].
neil_rick posts small blind [$400.00 USD].
nassauer3 posts big blind [$800.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to epitomised [   ]

[Longy]

Meh pretty sucky spot as I don't really like any of our options. I think I probably just fold readless.

Reads on how wide the bb will call here are vital.

[outragous76]

easy fold - sb will jam for you

or if you know he will play ball (ONLY IF YOU KNOW), you can call,  he calls - shorty should jam you both just call - if he doesnt jam you check it down

you gotta know he is going to help you bust the shorty

[salfi]

if u min raise sb shud ship if u fold sb wil fold also  as he can pwn u on the mini bubble.  top regs pwn u and  bad regs let u get your own way and try get the bb all in. its total read dependent here as all three options pre are exploitable by thinking players.....  shoving least exploitable but obviously the riskier of the three options. ude have to add a lot more information to do a mathamatical calculation of the best play long term.ibest i can come up with is
http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sngs/icmcalculator.html?action=calculate&bb=800&sb=400&ante=50&structure=0.66%2C0.33&s1=18258&s2=1405&s3=7337&s4=&s5=&s6=&s7=&s8=&s9=
 but i dont always shove k9 here even though the math suggests i shud . i shove more the likely and get spite called and finish 3rd more then likely but mhhh happens. interesting thing in this spot is u shud get spite called here by the chip leader so often its painfull. but math suggests its as break even a spot as u wil get but its deffo beter to push then fold it seams.

[Amatay]

i shove

[thetank]

I probs fold

[MC]

Interesting that you have some maths to say shove Salfi. I put this in on SNG wiz and thought I was way-off when it said something like 88+ and AJ+!

I actually shoved and obv got jammed by the sb and bust 3rd, and it felt like I'd donked it.

I guess all options do suck here. I actually think outrageous's suggestion might have worked best.

[salfi]

if u know for sure he sb shoves u can pass and hope. but if he decent and knows u are a thinking player he can/wil know he can pwn u. he wil fold sb and just pwn u so he attempt to get either of u hu with a super short stack. thing is i find in these games tryin to pwn dont work(so he prob wont and most people arnt good enough to pwn correctly)  cause people jizz on there screen when they sea an ace and spite there own equity for the chance to have the best hand. i fold quite often in these spots now cause of spiters but it shud be a shove from a math point of view i guess. just one of them spots where u destined to get beat up. long term though when it suggests the edge is 0.000000gayness then all three options shudnt make to much difference. folding is probly best to try get second but u do give up to much equity of 1st place by folding it suggests.   these spots are more important to study in steps when the equity of been spited really costs u a lot of equity. steps are my fav game for spots like this cause pwning is a must to maximize return esp against decent regs who are playin 215buy ins plus who understand icm spite calling and pwning, donks in 18mans dont knwo much about anything apart from i have ace hi wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii lets get it all in the middle and dance the funky chicken

[MC]

donks in 18mans dont knwo much about anything apart from i have ace hi wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii lets get it all in the middle and dance the funky chicken

lol

yeah I know what you're saying man. I'm obv uber aggressive on the bubble if I have the chip lead, and it's shocking how many ppl get it in with K5s and stuff.

[outragous76]

I actually shoved and obv got jammed by the sb and bust 3rd, and it felt like I'd donked it.

I guess all options do suck here. I actually think outrageous's suggestion might have worked best.

you did and thanks

at the end of the day you dont wanna bust here with such a shorty - if he doubles thru then the game keeps going - if he doesnt he doesnt

you can easily get spite called here - even regs do it periodically

by the same token - if you both co-operate to take him out - you have achieved your goal (guaranteeing 2nd). Even the CL will know that HU he is only 2 hands from loosing in a sng - and if he is a multi tabling reg - he would sooner lock up 2nd place and just jam it out for 1st
 

[salfi]

been results orientated?. me still think math is king

[AlexMartin]

Interesting that you have some maths to say shove Salfi. I put this in on SNG wiz and thought I was way-off when it said something like 88+ and AJ+!

I actually shoved and obv got jammed by the sb and bust 3rd, and it felt like I'd donked it.

I guess all options do suck here. I actually think outrageous's suggestion might have worked best.

serious?! thats truly enlightening. Maybe i shoulda listened harder to David Tighe...

[GreekStein]

Competant SB = fold
Other = minraise

[MC]

Yeah I think SB was competant.

Don't think I'm being results orientated on this one Salfi, it's just bb is so short and K9 is so marginal. It's good to know my shove wasn't terrible like I thought it might have been at the time, but I think there are better options out there.

Lol yeah Alex, ICM is a funny thing like that. Sometimes it's going too far though. Like KQ and AT aren't shippable in this spot.

[keilan303]

Limp or minraise, SB gets out the way without a hand, smashes it in with a hand... then watch the SB and BB race, rooting for the SB!