Which one is it (for tells experts)?

[Pyso]

This situation came up last night at DTD on the £0.50/£1 tables.

I 3-bet someone from the SB holding   . He had raised to £6 from EP and I re-popped it to £30. He called.

I don't want to go into the hand particularly, rather my opponents' actions and what they mean.

As the flop was dealt I was looking at the player. He just carried on looking at the flop until I checked the   flop and he instantly (and I mean instantly) picked up a seemingly random number of chips, (£35 as it turned out) and tossed them into the pot.

So basically his action was so quick it was predetermined. So this as I see it, is polarized - he is either committed to a hand like aces or he has absolute or near air and has decided to bet if I check come what may.

He was leaning forward, staring into the felt and his hands were covering his cards. He occasionally diverted his eyes over to me but would then go straight back to staring at the flop.

Ok, so I call his bet and basically the same thing happens on the turn, well, not quite the same - he instantly puts me all-in. I'll be honest, sitting here now I can't remember the turn card but it wasn't paint and it didn't complete a draw.

How do we gather which of the two scenarios we are up against? Predetermined play with AA or predetermined bluff with two missed overs (like mine)?

I know this is an overly simplistic question, but I want to focus on this type of betting action rather than the actual hand and how I should play it.

Does anyone recognise this scene?

[bolt pp]

if you're looking at "tells" and bettings patterns then it depends what he's done in hands before, usually a good guide.

i would say just from your explination he has a hand

[Pyso]

if you're looking at "tells" and bettings patterns then it depends what he's done in hands before, usually a good guide.

i would say just from your explination he has a hand

I had very little history on him unfortunately.

You say it sounds like he had a hand. Can you please elaborate a little? From my description, what makes you think this? Is it the quick predetermined bet or his posture?

Interestingly if I play this hand online I have no 'tells' and pass my Ace high without a second thought. Because this was live I have time to over analyse.

[EvilPie]

Forget the tell mate seriously.

Unless you've got 2 guys singing "we binked the turn, we're getting paid" then physical tells are a nightmare to read.

Go on betting patterns only. His betting pattern suggests he has a hand and unfortunately you don't have a hand.

So I would suggest a pass is on the cards here.

If he's bluffed then he done good.

[titaniumbean]

I don't really get the pf raise size, once you check the flop you have to just fold. As it is i've found players who bet 'this much' are the kind who are just waiting for a hand.

[Longy]

Did he have his hand in the air?

[bolt pp]

if you're looking at "tells" and bettings patterns then it depends what he's done in hands before, usually a good guide.

i would say just from your explination he has a hand

I had very little history on him unfortunately.

You say it sounds like he had a hand. Can you please elaborate a little? From my description, what makes you think this? Is it the quick predetermined bet or his posture?

Interestingly if I play this hand online I have no 'tells' and pass my Ace high without a second thought. Because this was live I have time to over analyse.

because it sounds too much like you're trying to say he's bluffing so i said the opposite

You could make it being a case for either imo, ive seen people terrified of being outdrawn with a set they shovel money in the pot shitting themself "insta betting" as opposed to extracting value.

you're not saying it's a semi bluff though, it sounds like it but it's not, it's either AA+ or air?

if he's drunk it matters a lot also, sober bloke probs doesnt fire the second bullet with air.

theres no magic key though that once you unlock it you can read the soul of unknown player X at will, reads and tells are not that great and they only work if you've got history with the guy imo.

[Pyso]

Did he have his hand in the air?

I love helpful responses like this.

[MANTIS01]

pls don't make your decisions on betting patterns alone in a live game. If you're going to do that stay at home and play tinternet.

[Pyso]

I don't really get the pf raise size, once you check the flop you have to just fold. As it is i've found players who bet 'this much' are the kind who are just waiting for a hand.

I thought the pf raise was alright - what don't you like about it?

[titaniumbean]

If the player is competent and the kind of player you think will see you are repping a whiffed AK and move you off it then why are you checking the flop to him. If he isn't capable of assessing the range of hands you could be perceived to have then it's a very easy fold imo irrespective of tells.

[Pyso]

pls don't make your decisions on betting patterns alone in a live game. If you're going to do that stay at home and play tinternet.

Please trust me - I don't go solely on tells. That would be insane. But I wanted to post because I have seen this "insta-bet, come what may" before and I wanted some blonde perspectives on it. Whether I called or not isn't really important, for me I just want some considered and helpful insight.

From the responses so far, it's clear that most people don't think tells to be that important. Oh, and bolt, he was very sober. I was too, tired, but definitely sober.

[titaniumbean]

I don't really get the pf raise size, once you check the flop you have to just fold. As it is i've found players who bet 'this much' are the kind who are just waiting for a hand.

I thought the pf raise was alright - what don't you like about it?

What are the effective stack sizes? it's 0.5/1 right? 6 is a decent sized open and 30 is a big 3 bet (pot would be ~20 I think). Yes we are oop and we dont want calls as often. If he's bad and we think he is always calling (which it doesn't sound like here) then big is great and just bet and get it in all the time but considering no one is that exploitable and people esp at 0.5/1 play pretty darn tight i'd 3 bet pre to 22 and c/f this flop to that bet. Not that many live players have lots of bluff in them so a quick bet is more likely to be something in their hand telling them they are winning than them seeing weakness and pouncing.

[Pyso]

If the player is competent and the kind of player you think will see you are repping a whiffed AK and move you off it then why are you checking the flop to him. If he isn't capable of assessing the range of hands you could be perceived to have then it's a very easy fold imo irrespective of tells.

Ok, fair enough, I see why I have to fold if I check, but the pf raise is pretty standard, surely? Sometimes I call and take a flop but on this occasion I chose to 3-bet .

[Pyso]

I don't really get the pf raise size, once you check the flop you have to just fold. As it is i've found players who bet 'this much' are the kind who are just waiting for a hand.

I thought the pf raise was alright - what don't you like about it?

What are the effective stack sizes? it's 0.5/1 right? 6 is a decent sized open and 30 is a big 3 bet (pot would be ~20 I think). Yes we are oop and we dont want calls as often. If he's bad and we think he is always calling (which it doesn't sound like here) then big is great and just bet and get it in all the time but considering no one is that exploitable and people esp at 0.5/1 play pretty darn tight i'd 3 bet pre to 22 and c/f this flop to that bet. Not that many live players have lots of bluff in them so a quick bet is more likely to be something in their hand telling them they are winning than them seeing weakness and pouncing.

Fair point. We're getting into the hand here, which I didn't want really but never mind. It's some useful perspective Andy. I knew I was overdoing the 'tells' bit, but I did wonder if anyone had seen this insta-bet before, and what they thought it meant.