20:20 hand

[Cf]

Have just 3 hands ago been moved to a new table so no reads. This table has a lot of chips in play, including the current chip leader. I'm sat between two other big stacks of 80k+.

Blinds are 1000/2000-200. About 70 players left. Top 27 paid. Average stack of 40ishk.

I'm in MP playing a stack of 32,000. Folds to me and I've got    . Is open shoving fine here?

[BulldozerD]

hmm i guess its unexploitable but i think i prefer making a std raise here with AJ and i would probably call a shove

[Ironside]

nothing wrong with the shove but making it 5k is ok, if there is a couple of players move in behind you can still get away with 27k and still have wiggle room obvs if one guy moves in and you have no reads then you can call and hope for a fliip if you are feeling lucky

[MC]

A 16 big blind shove from MP with AJ? I doubt that's inexploitable.

Too many chips to shove I think, Raise to 5k.

[GreekStein]

A 16 big blind shove from MP with AJ? I doubt that's inexploitable.

Too many chips to shove I think, Raise to 5k.

Yeah I agree with James.

I think we can pass a lot of the time if we get raised as we'll be in bad shape a lot here to a live players 3-bet range.

Awkward stack to open tbh but I don't like shovelling them in here.

[Ironside]

alot of live players i play against will 3 bet alot lighter than AJ imho and against some i would instant call
dont think many would call the shove lighter than AJ though
obviously if there is a 4 bet its an instant fold
but i dont think you should be insta folding to a 3bet 100% of the time

[Rupert]

i reckon you could shove AJo there turn your hand face up and still be +EV

[outragous76]

Way too much to shove this live. You could prob 4 bet and get the villain to fold!!!!!!

[yorky34]

i would either raise 5k  or even maybe fold here

[Cf]

I found 2 things awkward about this hand.

Firstly, I'd just been moved tables. I knew absolutely nothing of the players around me.
Secondly, my hand and position were really awkward with this stack size.

These two factors led me to even consider just folding and trying to get some more info on the table. But I only have an m of 6ish, I've not got much time to be doing that.

I also considered a raise, but again, I don't know how the table would react to it. Eg, on my old table there's some players that i could snap a shove from and others that i could snap fold to. But I don't have this info here.

In the end I decided that shoving an m of 6 with AJ must be just about +EV. It seemed the best and easiest of the options so I went with it.

[Longy]

I am pretty sure shoving is an unexploitable here (not checked it in sngwiz yet), this actually takes me to a conversation on here about M yesterday. We don't really have 16bbs effective here with antes in play, that is why using M is better. Without antes our stack is effectively just over 10bbs and then shoving wouldn't seem so ridic.

I do prefer opening to 5k here and playing from there but with a little less in my stack (less than 30k), I probably would open shove.

[BulldozerD]

i see it as unexploitable but also does help opponents reduce your range to vulnerable hands, which helps their decision making. You aren't doing this with premium i am pretty sure.

i just prefer to raise/call as it lets others try and resteal with worse aces and also gives you the option of folding if the action really kicks off behind (such as reraise and call from button/blinds). It also sets you up to play big hands in the same manner.

I'd probably open jam around 10-12bbs or less, rightly or wrongly.

[Rupert]

i really dislike raising in an environment where we dont really know what we are going to do if someone is going to jam on us which is why i prefer shoving.

folding is obviously out of the question since jamming is +EV and fairly easy to prove.

[EvilPie]

I am pretty sure shoving is an unexploitable here (not checked it in sngwiz yet), this actually takes me to a conversation on here about M yesterday. We don't really have 16bbs effective here with antes in play, that is why using M is better. Without antes our stack is effectively just over 10bbs and then shoving wouldn't seem so ridic.

I do prefer opening to 5k here and playing from there but with a little less in my stack (less than 30k), I probably would open shove.

I don't really like this thinking. It sounds like we're going back to the negative side of thinking of our stack in terms of how long we can survive as Gatso was saying.

We should be thinking of our short stack in terms of what pots we can win in which case it's still very much the number of BBs that is relevant as that is our FE if we don't find a premium hand.

Shoving 16 bigs here seems a bit extreme. We're only getting called by better hands or possibly if we're lucky a racing hand. A lot of live players will lay down 99 in this spot against an unknown and even more will lay down A10 (myself included) so we might as well make this play with atc. We are scaring off the few hands that we hope to be called by.

Raise to 5k seems fine and fold to a shove with no reads. We preserve a good stack for stealing a few unopened pots if we need to.

I also don't mind a pass and watch the table a bit. Find someone who raises 3 times in the next orbit then reshove our 14 bigs on him with any vaguely connected cards or raise to induce if we find AJ+ again.

[Biddy 62]

We are scaring off the few hands that we hope to be called by. Never thought that way before.