Hypothetical MTT Situation

[T_Mar]

Mid stages of online MTT

Blinds 150/300/25

Villian (CO) 10k
Hero (BB) 10k


Folds to Villian
Villian raises to 825
SB folds
Hero has AK.

No specific reads on villian, assume they not a complete fish though and have some clue of whats going on.

Questions

1. Should we 3bet 100% of the time?
2. What is a good raise size when we 3bet?
3. Whats the plan for the flop if villian calls the 3bet? Should we be open shoving all flops?

Q3 kind of links into Q2 in that I'm wanting to know if my raise size should be bigger than usual so that a) It encourages villian to fold or shove pre  b) If he does call means I have a good stack to open shove the flop (good in relation to the size of the pot) 

4. If people like 3bet / shove any flop line, what other hands would you take this line with in this situation


Thoughts appreciated

[salfi]

i personally 3bet here to about 3k and that induces spazzy 4 bets and gives me a pot size flop bet(in general i do this). ide take this line with a  value range . exact range obviously depends on what i think of the original pot opener(no reads depends on the buy in). im 3bettng fairly tight in this spot from a mid pos open but ak is a cooler if i go broke. for exact ranges really does depend on villain . srry cant be much more use.
100percent 3bet yes

[RichD]

I'd have a go at the SB for passing out of turn

[T_Mar]

i personally 3bet here to about 3k and that induces spazzy 4 bets and gives me a pot size flop bet(in general i do this). ide take this line with a  value range . exact range obviously depends on what i think of the original pot opener(no reads depends on the buy in). im 3bettng fairly tight in this spot from a mid pos open but ak is a cooler if i go broke. for exact ranges really does depend on villain . srry cant be much more use.
100percent 3bet yes

ok but when you 3bet you are committing to pot (obv pre) but even when the flop misses you completely, you follow up by shoving? i realise things could change slightly depedning on oppo, but struggle in these spots so looking for some kind of general line to take

[MANTIS01]

If you 3-bet to 3k your oppo will only play the very top of his range. If you make it 1,825 villain can still push but also he plays a much wider range. I don't think we're deep enough to want A-9 folding to our clearly pot-committing 3-bet. You can c-jam lots of flops when you miss and play with one hand in the air when you hit.

[T_Mar]

If you 3-bet to 3k your oppo will only play the very top of his range. If you make it 1,825 villain can still push but also he plays a much wider range. I don't think we're deep enough to want A-9 folding to our clearly pot-committing 3-bet. You can c-jam lots of flops when you miss and play with one hand in the air when you hit.

I think this smaller raise size is ok in position but oop I dont like it (its what I have been doing, but getting into trouble with).  Obv when you can induce ridic shoves then its ok, but it also gives the oppo a big price to just call and have position after the flop... Stacks are then awkward in relation to the pot

[Boba Fett]

If you 3-bet to 3k your oppo will only play the very top of his range. If you make it 1,825 villain can still push but also he plays a much wider range. I don't think we're deep enough to want A-9 folding to our clearly pot-committing 3-bet. You can c-jam lots of flops when you miss and play with one hand in the air when you hit.

Surely nothing good can ever come of open shoving a little over 8k into a 4k pot no matter what the flop is unless we have a solid read that the villain can stack off with worse to such an insane overbet?

[MANTIS01]

If you 3-bet to 3k your oppo will only play the very top of his range. If you make it 1,825 villain can still push but also he plays a much wider range. I don't think we're deep enough to want A-9 folding to our clearly pot-committing 3-bet. You can c-jam lots of flops when you miss and play with one hand in the air when you hit.

I think this smaller raise size is ok in position but oop I dont like it (its what I have been doing, but getting into trouble with).  Obv when you can induce ridic shoves then its ok, but it also gives the oppo a big price to just call and have position after the flop... Stacks are then awkward in relation to the pot

Being oop is not overly important here because of the stack to pot ratio, it's not like your gonna be playing through the streets in this hand, all the action will be on the flop. Yeah you attract your oppo to give you action with a smaller 3-bet but with the game so shallow that's much better than turning A-K into a bluff and getting villain to fold, it also gives you more workability/choice for the flop action.

[MANTIS01]

If you 3-bet to 3k your oppo will only play the very top of his range. If you make it 1,825 villain can still push but also he plays a much wider range. I don't think we're deep enough to want A-9 folding to our clearly pot-committing 3-bet. You can c-jam lots of flops when you miss and play with one hand in the air when you hit.

Surely nothing good can ever come of open shoving a little over 8k into a 4k pot no matter what the flop is unless we have a solid read that the villain can stack off with worse to such an insane overbet?

Don't know how the question relates to my post Boba but I agree with you anyway.

[cia260895]

is this NEVER a call?

if so why?

[AlexMartin]

is this NEVER a call?

if so why?

oop, 10% of our stack, premium hand that requires you to hit which will only happen a third of the time.

[cia260895]

is this NEVER a call?

if so why?

oop, 10% of our stack, premium hand that requires you to hit which will only happen a third of the time.

ok but doesnt this give the perfect calling odds seeing as yr getting 3-1 on the call leaving yourself enough left back should you miss the flop?

I knows its a premium hand but it still has to hit?

[titaniumbean]

is this NEVER a call?

if so why?

oop, 10% of our stack, premium hand that requires you to hit which will only happen a third of the time.

ok but doesnt this give the perfect calling odds seeing as yr getting 3-1 on the call leaving yourself enough left back should you miss the flop?

I knows its a premium hand but it still has to hit?

It can hit a flow flop! Where we have 25% equity against 1 pair hands + the amount of time he calls and c/f.


Shoving pre reduces the number of hands we get action from, it also stops us 3 betting small preflop as a bluff.

[T_Mar]

If you 3-bet to 3k your oppo will only play the very top of his range. If you make it 1,825 villain can still push but also he plays a much wider range. I don't think we're deep enough to want A-9 folding to our clearly pot-committing 3-bet. You can c-jam lots of flops when you miss and play with one hand in the air when you hit.

I think this smaller raise size is ok in position but oop I dont like it (its what I have been doing, but getting into trouble with).  Obv when you can induce ridic shoves then its ok, but it also gives the oppo a big price to just call and have position after the flop... Stacks are then awkward in relation to the pot

Being oop is not overly important here because of the stack to pot ratio, it's not like your gonna be playing through the streets in this hand, all the action will be on the flop. Yeah you attract your oppo to give you action with a smaller 3-bet but with the game so shallow that's much better than turning A-K into a bluff and getting villain to fold, it also gives you more workability/choice for the flop action.

Not sure I agree with this - whole point of bigger 3bet is to set up a credible psb on the flop - and we're not turning the hand into a bluff, we rasiing for value

[MANTIS01]

If you 3-bet to 3k your oppo will only play the very top of his range. If you make it 1,825 villain can still push but also he plays a much wider range. I don't think we're deep enough to want A-9 folding to our clearly pot-committing 3-bet. You can c-jam lots of flops when you miss and play with one hand in the air when you hit.

I think this smaller raise size is ok in position but oop I dont like it (its what I have been doing, but getting into trouble with).  Obv when you can induce ridic shoves then its ok, but it also gives the oppo a big price to just call and have position after the flop... Stacks are then awkward in relation to the pot

Being oop is not overly important here because of the stack to pot ratio, it's not like your gonna be playing through the streets in this hand, all the action will be on the flop. Yeah you attract your oppo to give you action with a smaller 3-bet but with the game so shallow that's much better than turning A-K into a bluff and getting villain to fold, it also gives you more workability/choice for the flop action.

Not sure I agree with this - whole point of bigger 3bet is to set up a credible psb on the flop - and we're not turning the hand into a bluff, we rasiing for value

If you agree villain's opening range from the cut-off is fairly wide 3-betting bigger is asking villain if he wants to commit like 1/3 of his stack to his hand. He wont want to do that most of the time. So it's pointless making a play that sets up a psb on the flop when you wont make the flop most of the time. Getting action is your first concern imo. You aren't getting value when villain folds to a big 3-bet.