Angle shooting at its worst - That Roland De Wolfe incident

[titaniumbean]

Out of interest, if the other player had insta-mucked his cards after Roland, what would happen to the pot?

with how much the dealer tried to stop RDW mucking. it's completely his fault.

the idea that the other guy does anything out of line is so tilting. action is on RDW  TO SHOW BOTH CARDS BECAUSE ITS SHOWDOWN AND HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY OPTIONS.....

[doubleup]

Roland pushed his cards into the muck.... hand over.

imo the dealer prevented him mucking.  If that is accepted his hand was still live.

If I remember it correctly, the dealer tried to, but Roland was persistent and forcefully mucked it.

If you look closely the dealer appears to be of the opinion (rightly or wrongly) that Roland's cards should be shown down and although they touch the muck the dealer grabs them and turns them over when they are clearly identifiable.

[GreekStein]

Out of interest, if the other player had insta-mucked his cards after Roland, what would happen to the pot?

with how much the dealer tried to stop RDW mucking. it's completely his fault.

the idea that the other guy does anything out of line is so tilting. action is on RDW  TO SHOW BOTH CARDS BECAUSE ITS SHOWDOWN AND HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY OPTIONS.....

The other guy IS out of line tho.

If that pot is between you and me and I flash you a King, whilst I might be a twat for not showing you my other card would you not say, 'it's good'?

[Claw75]

Out of interest, if the other player had insta-mucked his cards after Roland, what would happen to the pot?

with how much the dealer tried to stop RDW mucking. it's completely his fault.

the idea that the other guy does anything out of line is so tilting. action is on RDW  TO SHOW BOTH CARDS BECAUSE ITS SHOWDOWN AND HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY OPTIONS.....

The other guy IS out of line tho.

If that pot is between you and me and I flash you a King, whilst I might be a twat for not showing you my other card would you not say, 'it's good'?

But this is different to a normal scenario. Normally someone who makes the call will have something. He's done this presumably because he has an idea RDW has pretty much nothing too and won't want to show and he knows that's the only way he can win.

Stupid question time - if RDW mucks his cards and other bloke pushes his into the muck too - what would happen to the pot?

[kinboshi]

Out of interest, if the other player had insta-mucked his cards after Roland, what would happen to the pot?

with how much the dealer tried to stop RDW mucking. it's completely his fault.

the idea that the other guy does anything out of line is so tilting. action is on RDW  TO SHOW BOTH CARDS BECAUSE ITS SHOWDOWN AND HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY OPTIONS.....

The other guy IS out of line tho.

If that pot is between you and me and I flash you a King, whilst I might be a twat for not showing you my other card would you not say, 'it's good'?

But this is different to a normal scenario. Normally someone who makes the call will have something. He's done this presumably because he has an idea RDW has pretty much nothing too and won't want to show and he knows that's the only way he can win.

Stupid question time - if RDW mucks his cards and other bloke pushes his into the muck too - what would happen to the pot?

Out of interest, if the other player had insta-mucked his cards after Roland, what would happen to the pot?

It was quoted, but no one actually answered it.

[MANTIS01]

Out of interest, if the other player had insta-mucked his cards after Roland, what would happen to the pot?

with how much the dealer tried to stop RDW mucking. it's completely his fault.

the idea that the other guy does anything out of line is so tilting. action is on RDW  TO SHOW BOTH CARDS BECAUSE ITS SHOWDOWN AND HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY OPTIONS.....

The other guy IS out of line tho.

If that pot is between you and me and I flash you a King, whilst I might be a twat for not showing you my other card would you not say, 'it's good'?

The other guy isn't out of line though because RDW really really deserved that to happen to him. So it is ok. If a guy is trying to be too cool for sckool at showdown and starts wtf flashing one card I think it is acceptable to try and make that guy look like a cock.

[titaniumbean]

Out of interest, if the other player had insta-mucked his cards after Roland, what would happen to the pot?

with how much the dealer tried to stop RDW mucking. it's completely his fault.

the idea that the other guy does anything out of line is so tilting. action is on RDW  TO SHOW BOTH CARDS BECAUSE ITS SHOWDOWN AND HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY OPTIONS.....

The other guy IS out of line tho.

If that pot is between you and me and I flash you a King, whilst I might be a twat for not showing you my other card would you not say, 'it's good'?

norrrr cos c'mmon!!

where is the action?



it's on RDW to SHOW BOTH CARDS AND LAY CLAIM TO THE CHIPS DANS LA MIDDLE.


  x cannot win the pot, foreign bloke has done nothing wrong, he cant have action isn't on him yet.

[GreekStein]

Out of interest, if the other player had insta-mucked his cards after Roland, what would happen to the pot?

with how much the dealer tried to stop RDW mucking. it's completely his fault.

the idea that the other guy does anything out of line is so tilting. action is on RDW  TO SHOW BOTH CARDS BECAUSE ITS SHOWDOWN AND HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY OPTIONS.....

The other guy IS out of line tho.

If that pot is between you and me and I flash you a King, whilst I might be a twat for not showing you my other card would you not say, 'it's good'?

norrrr cos c'mmon!!

where is the action?



it's on RDW to SHOW BOTH CARDS AND LAY CLAIM TO THE CHIPS DANS LA MIDDLE.


  x cannot win the pot, foreign bloke has done nothing wrong, he cant have action isn't on him yet.

Listen I know Roland is definitely the most wrong in this situation but I still think Renkenmeier should say to Roland his hand is good.

I imagined what would happen if I was in Tobias's shoes. I call thinking there's a chance Q hi is good. My opponent is being a knob by not showing both cards but upon flashing a King I would say 'yeah king is good, show both your cards'. I'd muck my hand and tell him he's a dousche for not immediately tabling his hand.
 

[titaniumbean]

He's foreign, and didn't do his interview in english. cant he get some slack?


This is one of the things i hate about live.

river... pairs board. bet and a call. 'I have two pair' ' I have two pair'...... which two pairs......



RDW learns the showdown rules/doesn't value his information so highly he never loses the pot. For going to the effort of lifting the dealers fingers and forcing the cards into the muck he deserves to be shot in the face, the other guy has the right to see the cards he paid for even if hes then going to show the best hand.

[Cf]

Out of interest, if the other player had insta-mucked his cards after Roland, what would happen to the pot?

with how much the dealer tried to stop RDW mucking. it's completely his fault.

the idea that the other guy does anything out of line is so tilting. action is on RDW  TO SHOW BOTH CARDS BECAUSE ITS SHOWDOWN AND HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY OPTIONS.....

The other guy IS out of line tho.

If that pot is between you and me and I flash you a King, whilst I might be a twat for not showing you my other card would you not say, 'it's good'?

But this is different to a normal scenario. Normally someone who makes the call will have something. He's done this presumably because he has an idea RDW has pretty much nothing too and won't want to show and he knows that's the only way he can win.

Stupid question time - if RDW mucks his cards and other bloke pushes his into the muck too - what would happen to the pot?

Out of interest, if the other player had insta-mucked his cards after Roland, what would happen to the pot?

It was quoted, but no one actually answered it.

The other bloke wins because he was the last person in the pot with a live hand.

[kinboshi]

Out of interest, if the other player had insta-mucked his cards after Roland, what would happen to the pot?

with how much the dealer tried to stop RDW mucking. it's completely his fault.

the idea that the other guy does anything out of line is so tilting. action is on RDW  TO SHOW BOTH CARDS BECAUSE ITS SHOWDOWN AND HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY OPTIONS.....

The other guy IS out of line tho.

If that pot is between you and me and I flash you a King, whilst I might be a twat for not showing you my other card would you not say, 'it's good'?

But this is different to a normal scenario. Normally someone who makes the call will have something. He's done this presumably because he has an idea RDW has pretty much nothing too and won't want to show and he knows that's the only way he can win.

Stupid question time - if RDW mucks his cards and other bloke pushes his into the muck too - what would happen to the pot?

Out of interest, if the other player had insta-mucked his cards after Roland, what would happen to the pot?

It was quoted, but no one actually answered it.

The other bloke wins because he was the last person in the pot with a live hand.

So you don't have to show your hand at showdown to claim the pot?

[poonjoe]

Out of interest, if the other player had insta-mucked his cards after Roland, what would happen to the pot?

Not sure about that one Kinboshi but I will be sure to ask tournament Dave. If I was TD and both players mucked at showdown I would definitely be looking at their cards (if retrievable) as this is obviously a collusion issue.

Kremser obviously awarded the pot to the guy with a live hand, and not to the guy who had mucked his hand. This is the right ruling of course.

My issue is with the underhanded behaviour of Tobias. Titanium Bean, you say that the 'action' is on RDW and it is his responsibility to turn both cards over. He doesn't turn both cards over, just flashes the King. He may as well have kept both cards face down, as flashing the King is effectively the same thing as saying 'K-high'. RDW says 'K-high' repeatedly.

Now here is the crux of the issue. While RDW is saying 'K-high', Tobias is not silently waiting for him to turn both cards over. Tobias asks him to turn both cards over - fair enough. When RDW doesn't turn both cards over, Tobias spies his opportunity to win this pot in an underhand way. He leads RDW to believe that Tobias has the best hand. He does this by making reference to his own hand as 'a nice hand', he does this with his body language and the way in which he asks RDW to show both cards.

Some would call it angle shooting, some would call it cheating.

[titaniumbean]

Out of interest, if the other player had insta-mucked his cards after Roland, what would happen to the pot?

My issue is with the underhanded behaviour of Tobias. Titanium Bean, you say that the 'action' is on RDW and it is his responsibility to turn both cards over. He doesn't turn both cards over, just flashes the King. He may as well have kept both cards face down, as flashing the King is effectively the same thing as saying 'K-high'. RDW says 'K-high' repeatedly.


Now here is the crux of the issue. While RDW is saying 'K-high', Tobias is not silently waiting for him to turn both cards over. Tobias asks him to turn both cards over - fair enough. When RDW doesn't turn both cards over, Tobias spies his opportunity to win this pot in an underhand way. He leads RDW to believe that Tobias has the best hand. He does this by making reference to his own hand as 'a nice hand', he does this with his body language and the way in which he asks RDW to show both cards.

Some would call it angle shooting, some would call it cheating.

I disagree the crux of the issue is in your first paragraph. Where it is on RDW to show BOTH CARDS TO WIN THE POT. Not one or declare a possible holding, SHOW BOTH TO WIN.

Tobias is the 2nd to act at showdown. and on seeing RDW's hand he can muck or show the winner. I dont see how he can be underhand whilst the action still isn't on him.

once RDW forcibly mucks his cards not only is it his fault but he's being underhand in his showdown etiquette, his opponent called his river bet he should get to see both cards.

That's how I see it anyway.

[MANTIS01]

You can't blame people for taking advantage of dumb behaviour. There's a guy who I work with who at times can be plain dumb. Last week he was using the cash machine and when it said "Do you require another service?" he just walked off without retrieving his card. Yep, that's right. Plain dumb. He reckons the hot girl from the sandwich shop walked past and he got distracted. Anyway, when he realised what he'd done he raced back to the cashpoint. It appears the guy behind him in the queue required another service alright because the max withdrawel had been made. Now it's a shame people steal and I feel kinda sorry for this guy but it was his own dumb ass behaviour that allowed this to happen. Roland invited this. And it happened.

[GreekStein]

You can't blame people for taking advantage of dumb behaviour. There's a guy who I work with who at times can be plain dumb. Last week he was using the cash machine and when it said "Do you require another service?" he just walked off without retrieving his card. Yep, that's right. Plain dumb. He reckons the hot girl from the sandwich shop walked past and he got distracted. Anyway, when he realised what he'd done he raced back to the cashpoint. It appears the guy behind him in the queue required another service alright because the max withdrawel had been made. Now it's a shame people steal and I feel kinda sorry for this guy but it was his own dumb ass behaviour that allowed this to happen. Roland invited this. And it happened.

So if you were the guy behind him in the queue you would of taken his money too?