Deep in Sunday Brawl

[outragous76]

If you ICM this its not close, gotta think about $ev aswell as just Cev. It's probably technically a +ev decision but theres no need to put the chips in here. Flatting is nonsenical, why would you flat? are you folding if BB shoves?

if i was the bb id be more concerned by a flat than an iso shove tbh

[Murph1984]

A flat is just terrible,I don't think there's much debate in that.

[outragous76]

A flat is just terrible,I don't think there's much debate in that.

so you wouldnt flat with AA KK in that spot?

and dont foregt that G2L is going to have an image problem this deep in a tourney (sorry george)

[Murph1984]

What are you doing with your 66 if yu flat and the bb then shoves?

Just kissing 1/3 of your stack goodbye?

Flatting with 66,or anything similar is super exploitable,shoving much less so.

But I still say it's a fold.

[CounterfeitKing]

Flatting with 66,or anything similar is super exploitable,shoving much less so.

But I still say it's a fold.

+1000000000 and its not even close

[outragous76]

it is expoitable..................... but how many players are capable of making that play?

I think enough players flat with AA/KK in that spot nowadays that very few players are reshoving against a Laggy player in the SB (assuming G2L is playing to type)

so in "magical mystery cards face up world" - of course it is expolitable, however, when someone flats for 1/3 of their stack, are you shoving light (say JT green) from the BB assuming they will pass - i dont think so!

[CounterfeitKing]

lol kk

this is really bad thinking. unless you have specific reason as to why BB is completely incapable of making the play you should assume every player will play optimally. classic fundamental mistake is to assume you're better than everyone else and they aren't noticing what you are. not only that, you're not playing a $10 tourney, yeh the brawl standard is sporadic in skill but there are some extremely good players in it so why you would assume this I have no idea.

[Murph1984]

If i'm the bb,with these stack sizes and a flat from sb i'm prob shoving something like 99+ AQ and AK,a lot of which I fold to the shove.

[outragous76]

If i'm the bb,with these stack sizes and a flat from sb i'm prob shoving something like 99+ AQ and AK,a lot of which I fold to the shove.

LOL @ exploitable then

what you calling with if he iso shoves?

JJ+ and AK

so expoitable is 3 hands - wp push those edges

[Murph1984]

I really don't get your arguements here tbh,right from your first post on the subject you have been making little sense in my eyes.

Flatting the 66 is exploitable because it allows a good player in the bb to come over the top with more hands that are beating you than he would call your shove with,surely you can understand this as a basic?

Add to the fact that you cannot possibly flat and then call the shove,and I don't see how any semi-decent player makes such a play with mid-pairs.

I can't even believe we are debating it,i'd be amazed if you could find two or three winning players on here who would advocate a flat.

[outragous76]

Exploitable in this instance = making a different play to that which you would have made if the hero iso shoved.

Therefore it isnt expoitable if the BB wakes up with AA KK QQ JJ and AK as he snaps your shove anyway.

Therefore in the range suggested above the only hands which are getting you off your flat with 66 are 99 TT and AQ

I think the point here is that a good player could re shove your flat with knowing you are folding and he is getting 2:1 on his play - that is EXPLOTING the play.

Like every poker hand - it is situation specific. If I am sat in the BB and all of a sudden the sb who is known as LAGGY and occasionally maniac flats, I can assure you my AQ and 99 get insta mucked - the bottom of my range would become TT/JJ to reshove and even then Im prob going to think very hard before doing it.

There are so few players that make the 'light' reshove play .... that without further info I do not think that you can say iso shoving is hugely greater that flatting

[Murph1984]

Therefore in the range suggested above the only hands which are getting you off your flat with 66 are 99 TT and AQ

3 extra hands is still exploitable,1 extra hand would be exploitable,maybe you want to look up the definition of exploitable?

There doesn't need to be a specific quantity for something to become exploitable,it either is or it isn't.


I am not advocating a shove,I don't like the shove,I fold the 6's pretty instantly,but I am saying that I absolutely hate the flat as opposed to a dislike for the shove.

I feel like I am repeating myself at this stage so i'll leave it at that.

[outragous76]

what if the bb includes TT & JJ in the sb's flattig range?

Although technically a 1 hand margin is expolitable in the "cards face up poker vaccum" - in the real world narrowing ranges isnt a perfect science.

[George2Loose]

George do you have an issue passing pocket sixes?
Is it not the same hand you got into trouble with in the 30R a couple of weeks back?

I have no problem passing if I think it's the correct play Stu. I just want to know what the optimal play is here. The discussion so far tells me it's not a straightforward fold/shove

[MANTIS01]

George do you have an issue passing pocket sixes?
Is it not the same hand you got into trouble with in the 30R a couple of weeks back?

I have no problem passing if I think it's the correct play Stu. I just want to know what the optimal play is here. The discussion so far tells me it's not a straightforward fold/shove

You've got no history on villain apart from the only hand he's tabled for a big pot is J-J. Using over 1/3 of your decent stack to call all-in on a blind gamble where you're flipping at best isn't ideal imo. Depends what the table's like really in determining whether this is the best use of your money.