Top and bottom in BB

[Autobetkev]

DTD 321 Deepstack, level 3, blinds 75/150. 8 handed table, Im in the BB with 8.5k behind. Table has been playing fairly standard poker (although this could be due to the presence of Paul Raynor (absolute maniacal fish), who has recently been eliminated).
UTG limps, button limps, (both have me covered), I check with  .
Flop  ......
Lead or check?

[GreekStein]

I lead Kev.

[Cf]

I lead for 300-350i

[Cottonbud]

Yep I lead too.

[George2Loose]

Everyone's saying lead. Why?

[Cottonbud]

This is not the sort of flop you want to check-raise or be check-calling OOP. Lead and take the momentum, you want to get the hand HU if you get reraised I would re-evaluate, if the table has been playing super straight forward. UTG's limp could have alot of pocket pairs in his range so if he reraises your lead I would say its more likely hes limped an over pair to the board rather than 54 or 66/33/22, given you have some blockers, but then again he may flat these hands (overpairs) to your donk-bet also.

[George2Loose]

When I grow up I wanna be James Keys

[Cottonbud]

Hi James, I agree with betting flop and turn but don't you think if UTG has limped a big overpair like JJ-AA he is going to raise a donk bet to protect his hand on the flop? And his thinking will be like if he's limped aces or kings as a trap I have to raise any flop bet as no one raised pre as his plan hasn't worked out as he wanted. Obv aces and kings are a small part of his range but I find live players love to limp trap utg. I really think the majority of live players will over play an overpair on this draw heavy flop.

[GreekStein]

Hi James, I agree with betting flop and turn but don't you think if UTG has limped a big overpair like JJ-AA he is going to raise a donk bet to protect his hand on the flop? And his thinking will be like if he's limped aces or kings as a trap I have to raise any flop bet as no one raised pre as his plan hasn't worked out as he wanted. Obv aces and kings are a small part of his range but I find live players love to limp trap utg.

Yeah I'm kinda sat on the fence on this one. I really think it depends on the buy in and opponent. In the £75 at let's say, opponents will happily raise a lead/call a jam holding 77 or 88 here, nvm aces so I'm stacking off. Playing a bigger buy in vs a good player, my hand probably goes in the muck.

However, the £300 at DTD has the strangest mix of players, from some who are v good to others who are just terrabad so I really don't think there's a clearcut answer here to this type of scenario. It's too opponent dependant.

[Cottonbud]

Nice post Cos these are my thoughts also.

[kinboshi]

I might be wrong, but I bet here to build the pot and expect a call (or a raise) if the other player has anything of the flop, or has overs.  A spade is going to slow the action down, so you want to be betting now when he can call or raise.  You only want to check to CR, surely - but I prefer leading out.

I would also lead out with a whole range of other hands, so the relative strength of my hand isn't obvious from the bet.

Knowing my luck, he has   and I'm getting my coat...

[Autobetkev]

OK, the concensus is to bet the flop, which I did. I bet 500, mainly to rep tpnk or a draw. It was folded round to Steve Holden on the button, who made it 1700 to go. What now?

[Cf]

I think your bet was too big. The problem you have now is if you flat call then the pot is up to just shy of 4k and you only have ~6k behind. The rest is probably going to go in on the turn/river, and there a lot of cards in the deck that are scare cards for you. You can't really 3bet now as you'd be needing almost half of your stack to do it. Either that or just shove. And you'll prob only get action from hands that are beating you, excluding some overpairs I guess if he can't lay them down.

If you bet less on the flop, say 300-350 then the raise you're facing will likely be smaller, around the 1000 area. From here we have more options open to us.

As played I think I fold to the raise because we're OOP and this could get very ugly very quickly.

[George2Loose]

I spose if you're James Keys and can lead/fold quite confident you're losing then leading is optimal. Obv you don't want it to get checked round and want some value for 2 pair.

This is perhaps why I would check/call here and see a turn card without inflating the pot. If you're beat now a scare card may come down to slow the action. It also keeps the pot smaller when bluff catching on the river.

As played it's difficult to flat the flop as there's so many cards a capable villian can bluff seeing as you're OOP

[Cf]

Something I also missed:

If you bet 300-350 then you might not have been raised in the first place.

You said you bet 500 to represent the draw or tpnk. Well, if that's how the button has read it then he could easily be bluffing at you here knowing he's putting you in a tricky spot.