have i played this right?

[MANTIS01]

iron

you played it fine

Laxie - people who continually call from the BB with ATC cause they are priced in have a terrible leak in their game and are a pleasure to play against

*check fold flop* is what they do 90% of the time - that or continue to spew by floating

If people who continually call from the BB with ATC cause they are priced in have a terrible leak why not adjust to their tendancies and raise 3x to exploit that leak as much as you can? If the guy calls 3x then raising 2.5x for consistency costs you money imo.

[outragous76]

iron

you played it fine

Laxie - people who continually call from the BB with ATC cause they are priced in have a terrible leak in their game and are a pleasure to play against

*check fold flop* is what they do 90% of the time - that or continue to spew by floating

If people who continually call from the BB with ATC cause they are priced in have a terrible leak why not adjust to their tendancies and raise 3x to exploit that leak as much as you can? If the guy calls 3x then raising 2.5x for consistency costs you money imo.

because when you raise 3x (post antes) people think you are a retard

and because it is that stupid mind set of "oohhh its not much more to flick in" - whereas 3x seems like too much

[MANTIS01]

iron

you played it fine

Laxie - people who continually call from the BB with ATC cause they are priced in have a terrible leak in their game and are a pleasure to play against

*check fold flop* is what they do 90% of the time - that or continue to spew by floating

If people who continually call from the BB with ATC cause they are priced in have a terrible leak why not adjust to their tendancies and raise 3x to exploit that leak as much as you can? If the guy calls 3x then raising 2.5x for consistency costs you money imo.

because when you raise 3x (post antes) people think you are a retard

and because it is that stupid mind set of "oohhh its not much more to flick in" - whereas 3x seems like too much

So if the bb is a defender and has shown he WILL call 3x you would still only raise 2.5x because you don't want people to think you're a retard?

[outragous76]

iron

you played it fine

Laxie - people who continually call from the BB with ATC cause they are priced in have a terrible leak in their game and are a pleasure to play against

*check fold flop* is what they do 90% of the time - that or continue to spew by floating

If people who continually call from the BB with ATC cause they are priced in have a terrible leak why not adjust to their tendancies and raise 3x to exploit that leak as much as you can? If the guy calls 3x then raising 2.5x for consistency costs you money imo.

because when you raise 3x (post antes) people think you are a retard

and because it is that stupid mind set of "oohhh its not much more to flick in" - whereas 3x seems like too much

So if the bb is a defender and has shown he WILL call 3x you would still only raise 2.5x because you don't want people to think you're a retard?

yes

and also when they call the pot is slightly smaller so it is easier to control should they check call and you have something to continue with.

are you suggesting 3xing all the way or just being "you"

[doubleup]

Mantis

When your range is strong you want to build a pot, when your range is weak you want to steal the blinds for the minimum amount that is necessary to achieve that goal. 

In late positon your range is generally weak so a smaller raise is optimal and if this encourages a player to call with a similarly weak range all is not lost when your attempt to steal the blinds fails (although for what to do after this point I am probably not the best to advise). 

What would be bad is to build a big pot with a weak range as a cunning opponent might realise that your range is weak and put pressure on you.  So just because someone calls a lot it is not necessarily a good tactic to raise more with a weak hand in the hope that they fold. 



 

[outragous76]

this thread is going back to 2006 imo

(but good work double up)

can can we talk about 5 betting light pls 

[MANTIS01]

iron

you played it fine

Laxie - people who continually call from the BB with ATC cause they are priced in have a terrible leak in their game and are a pleasure to play against

*check fold flop* is what they do 90% of the time - that or continue to spew by floating

If people who continually call from the BB with ATC cause they are priced in have a terrible leak why not adjust to their tendancies and raise 3x to exploit that leak as much as you can? If the guy calls 3x then raising 2.5x for consistency costs you money imo.

because when you raise 3x (post antes) people think you are a retard

and because it is that stupid mind set of "oohhh its not much more to flick in" - whereas 3x seems like too much

So if the bb is a defender and has shown he WILL call 3x you would still only raise 2.5x because you don't want people to think you're a retard?

yes

and also when they call the pot is slightly smaller so it is easier to control should they check call and you have something to continue with.

are you suggesting 3xing all the way or just being "you"

Not advocating 3xing all the way. Hoping to have a debate to challenge the always keep raise size the same theory but I'm just getting the basic theory behind 2.5xing for my troubles. If the bb is bad then straying away from the basic 2.5xing theory to exploit that badness is a good idea imo and one reason to increase the raise size.

"When they call the pot is slightly smaller"...Why is that good? If the bb calls wide oop pre-flop why don't you want that pot to be bigger considering you're holding the advantage of a strong hand and position?

[doubleup]

If the bb calls wide oop pre-flop why don't you want that pot to be bigger considering you're holding the advantage of a strong hand and position?

sigh

the fact that ironsides hand is strong is irrelevant - his range as he is on the button should be weak and if he changes his bet size when he has a strong hand a cunning........

[outragous76]

there is a sb to consider (and others depending upon where we raise from)  and 7 other players watching this play out too thou!

you have the conflict of changing your raise sizes leading to a tell and the balance between to the two suggests consistant raise size is more sensible route to take

[MANTIS01]

If the bb calls wide oop pre-flop why don't you want that pot to be bigger considering you're holding the advantage of a strong hand and position?

sigh

the fact that ironsides hand is strong is irrelevant - his range as he is on the button should be weak and if he changes his bet size when he has a strong hand a cunning........

If he increases the raise a cunning player will know he's got a strong hand? If the bb has a habit of calling wide oop he isn't cunning. You are trying to fit a general theory into a specific situation. So if the bb defends wide the fact ironside has a strong hand is very relevant. And we don't want to exploit that bad player because it fecks up our range balancing? For that to happen we've firstly gotta showdown, and if we do showdown those other 7 players get what tell? That when we increase our raise size we've got a strong hand? If we increase our raise size with junk in future hands our range now re-balances and we can steal more because of our tell.

Don't forget Outragous you said the bb will c-fold like 90% of the time. So pre is your chance to exploit. You don't want to exploit cos of range balancing and yet bb c-folds 90% remember.

[George2Loose]

If the bb calls wide oop pre-flop why don't you want that pot to be bigger considering you're holding the advantage of a strong hand and position?

sigh

the fact that ironsides hand is strong is irrelevant - his range as he is on the button should be weak and if he changes his bet size when he has a strong hand a cunning........

If he increases the raise a cunning player will know he's got a strong hand? If the bb has a habit of calling wide oop he isn't cunning. You are trying to fit a general theory into a specific situation. So if the bb defends wide the fact ironside has a strong hand is very relevant. And we don't want to exploit that bad player because it fecks up our range balancing? For that to happen we've firstly gotta showdown, and if we do showdown those other 7 players get what tell? That when we increase our raise size we've got a strong hand? If we increase our raise size with junk in future hands our range now re-balances and we can steal more because of our tell.

Don't forget Outragous you said the bb will c-fold like 90% of the time. So pre is your chance to exploit. You don't want to exploit cos of range balancing and yet bb c-folds 90% remember.

Wow just wow. LOL

[doubleup]

If the bb calls wide oop pre-flop why don't you want that pot to be bigger considering you're holding the advantage of a strong hand and position?

sigh

the fact that ironsides hand is strong is irrelevant - his range as he is on the button should be weak and if he changes his bet size when he has a strong hand a cunning........

If he increases the raise a cunning player will know he's got a strong hand? If the bb has a habit of calling wide oop he isn't cunning. You are trying to fit a general theory into a specific situation. So if the bb defends wide the fact ironside has a strong hand is very relevant. And we don't want to exploit that bad player because it fecks up our range balancing? For that to happen we've firstly gotta showdown, and if we do showdown those other 7 players get what tell? That when we increase our raise size we've got a strong hand? If we increase our raise size with junk in future hands our range now re-balances and we can steal more because of our tell.

Don't forget Outragous you said the bb will c-fold like 90% of the time. So pre is your chance to exploit. You don't want to exploit cos of range balancing and yet bb c-folds 90% remember.

If you are trying to say that against a player who is not paying any attention to your raise size or your range and who calls too much you should forget about anything that might be exploitable against a better player, I would agree with you but that is not what the discussion is about.

The discussion was about a button hand that happened to be near the top of the range against a player who we know nothing about.

[Ironside]

we know nothing about bb as its just gone from 19 to 18 players about 3rd hand oppo has been at table

to cut long story short he had 23o and i missed but it was nice to know he was defending blind as i got

intrest back off him later

posted to make sure i wasnt supposed to fold on flop


though his range could include alot of weaker pairs

[MANTIS01]

If the bb calls wide oop pre-flop why don't you want that pot to be bigger considering you're holding the advantage of a strong hand and position?

sigh

the fact that ironsides hand is strong is irrelevant - his range as he is on the button should be weak and if he changes his bet size when he has a strong hand a cunning........

If he increases the raise a cunning player will know he's got a strong hand? If the bb has a habit of calling wide oop he isn't cunning. You are trying to fit a general theory into a specific situation. So if the bb defends wide the fact ironside has a strong hand is very relevant. And we don't want to exploit that bad player because it fecks up our range balancing? For that to happen we've firstly gotta showdown, and if we do showdown those other 7 players get what tell? That when we increase our raise size we've got a strong hand? If we increase our raise size with junk in future hands our range now re-balances and we can steal more because of our tell.

Don't forget Outragous you said the bb will c-fold like 90% of the time. So pre is your chance to exploit. You don't want to exploit cos of range balancing and yet bb c-folds 90% remember.

If you are trying to say that against a player who is not paying any attention to your raise size or your range and who calls too much you should forget about anything that might be exploitable against a better player, I would agree with you but that is not what the discussion is about.

The discussion was about a button hand that happened to be near the top of the range against a player who we know nothing about.

Yes, I'm not talking about this hand. Quite a few posters said never vary your opening raise. Raising more to isolate a fish who calls wide is one reason to vary. I also think you should consider raising more from ep to give callers with position less room to manouvre post-flop and thus create good post flop SPR situations. Varying your raise size is also a good idea if you are skilled in manipulating your opponents perception of you.

[George2Loose]

If the bb calls wide oop pre-flop why don't you want that pot to be bigger considering you're holding the advantage of a strong hand and position?

sigh

the fact that ironsides hand is strong is irrelevant - his range as he is on the button should be weak and if he changes his bet size when he has a strong hand a cunning........

If he increases the raise a cunning player will know he's got a strong hand? If the bb has a habit of calling wide oop he isn't cunning. You are trying to fit a general theory into a specific situation. So if the bb defends wide the fact ironside has a strong hand is very relevant. And we don't want to exploit that bad player because it fecks up our range balancing? For that to happen we've firstly gotta showdown, and if we do showdown those other 7 players get what tell? That when we increase our raise size we've got a strong hand? If we increase our raise size with junk in future hands our range now re-balances and we can steal more because of our tell.

Don't forget Outragous you said the bb will c-fold like 90% of the time. So pre is your chance to exploit. You don't want to exploit cos of range balancing and yet bb c-folds 90% remember.

If you are trying to say that against a player who is not paying any attention to your raise size or your range and who calls too much you should forget about anything that might be exploitable against a better player, I would agree with you but that is not what the discussion is about.

The discussion was about a button hand that happened to be near the top of the range against a player who we know nothing about.

Yes, I'm not talking about this hand. Quite a few posters said never vary your opening raise. Raising more to isolate a fish who calls wide is one reason to vary. I also think you should consider raising more from ep to give callers with position less room to manouvre post-flop and thus create good post flop SPR situations. Varying your raise size is also a good idea if you are skilled in manipulating your opponents perception of you.

Your post would explain why all the high stakes regs who crush the game never vary their raise sizes. WD