Will you be voting at the upcoming elections?

[thetank]

Yeah, all the immediate post debate spin is a bit lol imo. Nothing wrong with taking time to reflect and analyze properly.

I still like the debates themselves, and have time for sober commentary the next day.

[MANTIS01]

Cameron made ground tonight with an improved and assured performance. Clegg appears to be a one trick pony who's playing the change from old politics card to death. The Lib Dems have an equal footing in these debates and I don't really see Clegg using that time to showcase liberal policies. I think he lacks depth and conviction. Brown is a disaster.

[Woodsey]

Cameron made ground tonight with an improved and assured performance. Clegg appears to be a one trick pony who's playing the change from old politics card to death. The Lib Dems have an equal footing in these debates and I don't really see Clegg using that time to showcase liberal policies. I think he lacks depth and conviction. Brown is a disaster.

Will you be voting conservative by chance?

[boldie]

Cameron made ground tonight with an improved and assured performance. Clegg appears to be a one trick pony who's playing the change from old politics card to death. The Lib Dems have an equal footing in these debates and I don't really see Clegg using that time to showcase liberal policies. I think he lacks depth and conviction. Brown is a disaster.

Cameron did OK yesterday, Clegg still came across as a reasonable politician. I thought the points Brown and Cameron, especially Brown, made on Trident were confused at best. They are of course right that you can't postpone the decision..it takes a while to get new subs and all that made and in operation. But Brown saying "Get real!" three or four times in a row to Clegg just came across as bullying and he didn't make a decent point with it at all. If Trident is that essential I would have hoped for Brown to make a better case for it. Cameron did much better on this point although his little; "I never thought I'd say this, but I agree with Gordon" joke was a bit odd, especially when they had just agreed that working together on the big issues was essential.

I switched off when they started on immigration as it just always gets on my tits the way this subject is discussed by politicians.. I bet ya any money that Cameron would not have said "They said only 13000 Poles would come over and instead there were hundreds of thousands!" if the Poles had been allowed to vote in the National elections.

[boldie]

p.s. Did anyone else have a little giggle at Cameron, trying to reassure an 84 year old woman about the changes he's got planned for 2016...

Good luck to her seeing the benefits of that!

[MANTIS01]

Cameron made ground tonight with an improved and assured performance. Clegg appears to be a one trick pony who's playing the change from old politics card to death. The Lib Dems have an equal footing in these debates and I don't really see Clegg using that time to showcase liberal policies. I think he lacks depth and conviction. Brown is a disaster.

Cameron did OK yesterday, Clegg still came across as a reasonable politician. I thought the points Brown and Cameron, especially Brown, made on Trident were confused at best. They are of course right that you can't postpone the decision..it takes a while to get new subs and all that made and in operation. But Brown saying "Get real!" three or four times in a row to Clegg just came across as bullying and he didn't make a decent point with it at all. If Trident is that essential I would have hoped for Brown to make a better case for it. Cameron did much better on this point although his little; "I never thought I'd say this, but I agree with Gordon" joke was a bit odd, especially when they had just agreed that working together on the big issues was essential.

I switched off when they started on immigration as it just always gets on my tits the way this subject is discussed by politicians.. I bet ya any money that Cameron would not have said "They said only 13000 Poles would come over and instead there were hundreds of thousands!" if the Poles had been allowed to vote in the National elections.

I dunno, I thought Brown's constant "Get real" to a naive Clegg hit the nail on the head. Clegg seems to think he can scrap Trident and still sit down with world leaders and negotiate on an equal footing. He also thinks we should stand up for ourselves more with America? I don't think a nonnuclear UK lead by Nick Clegg is going to carry much weight with Sarkozy, Obama etc. Clegg seems to be a bit of an ideologist and I do think he should get real. I mean he would give all current illegal immigrants amnesty to solve future illegal immigration, lol ok.

[Longy]

Cameron made ground tonight with an improved and assured performance. Clegg appears to be a one trick pony who's playing the change from old politics card to death. The Lib Dems have an equal footing in these debates and I don't really see Clegg using that time to showcase liberal policies. I think he lacks depth and conviction. Brown is a disaster.

Cameron did OK yesterday, Clegg still came across as a reasonable politician. I thought the points Brown and Cameron, especially Brown, made on Trident were confused at best. They are of course right that you can't postpone the decision..it takes a while to get new subs and all that made and in operation. But Brown saying "Get real!" three or four times in a row to Clegg just came across as bullying and he didn't make a decent point with it at all. If Trident is that essential I would have hoped for Brown to make a better case for it. Cameron did much better on this point although his little; "I never thought I'd say this, but I agree with Gordon" joke was a bit odd, especially when they had just agreed that working together on the big issues was essential.

I switched off when they started on immigration as it just always gets on my tits the way this subject is discussed by politicians.. I bet ya any money that Cameron would not have said "They said only 13000 Poles would come over and instead there were hundreds of thousands!" if the Poles had been allowed to vote in the National elections.

I dunno, I thought Brown's constant "Get real" to a naive Clegg hit the nail on the head. Clegg seems to think he can scrap Trident and still sit down with world leaders and negotiate on an equal footing. He also thinks we should stand up for ourselves more with America? I don't think a nonnuclear UK lead by Nick Clegg is going to carry much weight with Sarkozy, Obama etc. Clegg seems to be a bit of an ideologist and I do think he should get real. I mean he would give all current illegal immigrants amnesty to solve future illegal immigration, lol ok.

So you are saying Sarkozy and Obama are going to turn around and say if you don't agree with us we will start pointing nuclear weapons at you, lol! Last time I looked this isn't the middle of the cold war and France/US weren't a nuclear threat to Britain.

Clegg also isn't suggesting being non-nuclear simply looking at a different Nuclear deterrent for the UK which isn't outdated/as expensive.

[MANTIS01]

Cameron made ground tonight with an improved and assured performance. Clegg appears to be a one trick pony who's playing the change from old politics card to death. The Lib Dems have an equal footing in these debates and I don't really see Clegg using that time to showcase liberal policies. I think he lacks depth and conviction. Brown is a disaster.

Cameron did OK yesterday, Clegg still came across as a reasonable politician. I thought the points Brown and Cameron, especially Brown, made on Trident were confused at best. They are of course right that you can't postpone the decision..it takes a while to get new subs and all that made and in operation. But Brown saying "Get real!" three or four times in a row to Clegg just came across as bullying and he didn't make a decent point with it at all. If Trident is that essential I would have hoped for Brown to make a better case for it. Cameron did much better on this point although his little; "I never thought I'd say this, but I agree with Gordon" joke was a bit odd, especially when they had just agreed that working together on the big issues was essential.

I switched off when they started on immigration as it just always gets on my tits the way this subject is discussed by politicians.. I bet ya any money that Cameron would not have said "They said only 13000 Poles would come over and instead there were hundreds of thousands!" if the Poles had been allowed to vote in the National elections.

I dunno, I thought Brown's constant "Get real" to a naive Clegg hit the nail on the head. Clegg seems to think he can scrap Trident and still sit down with world leaders and negotiate on an equal footing. He also thinks we should stand up for ourselves more with America? I don't think a nonnuclear UK lead by Nick Clegg is going to carry much weight with Sarkozy, Obama etc. Clegg seems to be a bit of an ideologist and I do think he should get real. I mean he would give all current illegal immigrants amnesty to solve future illegal immigration, lol ok.

So you are saying Sarkozy and Obama are going to turn around and say if you don't agree with us we will start pointing nuclear weapons at you, lol! Last time I looked this isn't the middle of the cold war and France/US weren't a nuclear threat to Britain.

Clegg also isn't suggesting being non-nuclear simply looking at a different Nuclear deterrent for the UK which isn't outdated/as expensive.

Wow. How am I saying that? I'm saying that nuclear Britian is currently a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council and an integral part of global negotiations because of our status as one of the big five nuclear powers. Without that status we don't have the same credibility to negotiate about world affairs with other major powers. Just because we're not in the same nuclear club as Sarkozy, Obama, etc I don't think they their point weapons at us lol, I just think they wouldn't think we're very important anymore. So Clegg wants to be nuclear but doesn't know how yet? He wants to defend us but can't say how? Like I said, pretty naive.

[boldie]

Cameron made ground tonight with an improved and assured performance. Clegg appears to be a one trick pony who's playing the change from old politics card to death. The Lib Dems have an equal footing in these debates and I don't really see Clegg using that time to showcase liberal policies. I think he lacks depth and conviction. Brown is a disaster.

Cameron did OK yesterday, Clegg still came across as a reasonable politician. I thought the points Brown and Cameron, especially Brown, made on Trident were confused at best. They are of course right that you can't postpone the decision..it takes a while to get new subs and all that made and in operation. But Brown saying "Get real!" three or four times in a row to Clegg just came across as bullying and he didn't make a decent point with it at all. If Trident is that essential I would have hoped for Brown to make a better case for it. Cameron did much better on this point although his little; "I never thought I'd say this, but I agree with Gordon" joke was a bit odd, especially when they had just agreed that working together on the big issues was essential.

I switched off when they started on immigration as it just always gets on my tits the way this subject is discussed by politicians.. I bet ya any money that Cameron would not have said "They said only 13000 Poles would come over and instead there were hundreds of thousands!" if the Poles had been allowed to vote in the National elections.

I dunno, I thought Brown's constant "Get real" to a naive Clegg hit the nail on the head. Clegg seems to think he can scrap Trident and still sit down with world leaders and negotiate on an equal footing. He also thinks we should stand up for ourselves more with America? I don't think a nonnuclear UK lead by Nick Clegg is going to carry much weight with Sarkozy, Obama etc. Clegg seems to be a bit of an ideologist and I do think he should get real. I mean he would give all current illegal immigrants amnesty to solve future illegal immigration, lol ok.

Yeah e didn't explain this very well. I am guessing their plan is to say "OK, when you've been here illegally for X amount of years, let's have a one time amnesty and after that we can really deal with the issue. Let's not ignore the illegal people that are already here and working" which seems a fair point...in fact, it was a point made by the, considered to be, more right wing LPF in Holland. You have to deal with the existing illegal immigrants as well as deal with the borders...that makes sense, no?

[kinboshi]

Cameron made ground tonight with an improved and assured performance. Clegg appears to be a one trick pony who's playing the change from old politics card to death. The Lib Dems have an equal footing in these debates and I don't really see Clegg using that time to showcase liberal policies. I think he lacks depth and conviction. Brown is a disaster.

Cameron did OK yesterday, Clegg still came across as a reasonable politician. I thought the points Brown and Cameron, especially Brown, made on Trident were confused at best. They are of course right that you can't postpone the decision..it takes a while to get new subs and all that made and in operation. But Brown saying "Get real!" three or four times in a row to Clegg just came across as bullying and he didn't make a decent point with it at all. If Trident is that essential I would have hoped for Brown to make a better case for it. Cameron did much better on this point although his little; "I never thought I'd say this, but I agree with Gordon" joke was a bit odd, especially when they had just agreed that working together on the big issues was essential.

I switched off when they started on immigration as it just always gets on my tits the way this subject is discussed by politicians.. I bet ya any money that Cameron would not have said "They said only 13000 Poles would come over and instead there were hundreds of thousands!" if the Poles had been allowed to vote in the National elections.

I dunno, I thought Brown's constant "Get real" to a naive Clegg hit the nail on the head. Clegg seems to think he can scrap Trident and still sit down with world leaders and negotiate on an equal footing. He also thinks we should stand up for ourselves more with America? I don't think a nonnuclear UK lead by Nick Clegg is going to carry much weight with Sarkozy, Obama etc. Clegg seems to be a bit of an ideologist and I do think he should get real. I mean he would give all current illegal immigrants amnesty to solve future illegal immigration, lol ok.

So you are saying Sarkozy and Obama are going to turn around and say if you don't agree with us we will start pointing nuclear weapons at you, lol! Last time I looked this isn't the middle of the cold war and France/US weren't a nuclear threat to Britain.

Clegg also isn't suggesting being non-nuclear simply looking at a different Nuclear deterrent for the UK which isn't outdated/as expensive.

Wow. How am I saying that? I'm saying that nuclear Britian is currently a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council and an integral part of global negotiations because of our status as one of the big five nuclear powers. Without that status we don't have the same credibility to negotiate about world affairs with other major powers. Just because we're not in the same nuclear club as Sarkozy, Obama, etc I don't think they their point weapons at us lol, I just think they wouldn't think we're very important anymore. So Clegg wants to be nuclear but doesn't know how yet? He wants to defend us but can't say how? Like I said, pretty naive.

Yeah, Germany and Japan don't have any global status either.

[Bongo]

Clegg also isn't suggesting being non-nuclear simply looking at a different Nuclear deterrent for the UK which isn't outdated/as expensive.

The problem is they really need to be on subs.

[cia260895]

have just got this off wikipedia

Country    Warheads active/total*                    Year of first test                           CTBT status

United States    2,626 / 9,400[3]                       1945 ("Trinity")                        Signatory
Russia (4,650 / 12,000[3]                                      1949 ("RDS-1")                          Ratifier
United Kingdom    <160 / 185[3]                               1952 ("Hurricane")                          Ratifier
France    ~300 / 300[3]                                       1960 ("Gerboise Bleue")                 Ratifier
China    ~180 / 240[3]                                       1964 ("596")                                  Signatory

Now I'm not up to date with all the nuclear issues but why on Earth are all the numbers of weopons needed?

surely if any were going to be used there would only need 1 or 2 max?

How much each year does it cost to maintain the current Arsenal?

tbh I cant ever see a situation where an Britsh PM would actually ever push the button am sure the yanks would get in 1st

[MANTIS01]

Cameron made ground tonight with an improved and assured performance. Clegg appears to be a one trick pony who's playing the change from old politics card to death. The Lib Dems have an equal footing in these debates and I don't really see Clegg using that time to showcase liberal policies. I think he lacks depth and conviction. Brown is a disaster.

Cameron did OK yesterday, Clegg still came across as a reasonable politician. I thought the points Brown and Cameron, especially Brown, made on Trident were confused at best. They are of course right that you can't postpone the decision..it takes a while to get new subs and all that made and in operation. But Brown saying "Get real!" three or four times in a row to Clegg just came across as bullying and he didn't make a decent point with it at all. If Trident is that essential I would have hoped for Brown to make a better case for it. Cameron did much better on this point although his little; "I never thought I'd say this, but I agree with Gordon" joke was a bit odd, especially when they had just agreed that working together on the big issues was essential.

I switched off when they started on immigration as it just always gets on my tits the way this subject is discussed by politicians.. I bet ya any money that Cameron would not have said "They said only 13000 Poles would come over and instead there were hundreds of thousands!" if the Poles had been allowed to vote in the National elections.

I dunno, I thought Brown's constant "Get real" to a naive Clegg hit the nail on the head. Clegg seems to think he can scrap Trident and still sit down with world leaders and negotiate on an equal footing. He also thinks we should stand up for ourselves more with America? I don't think a nonnuclear UK lead by Nick Clegg is going to carry much weight with Sarkozy, Obama etc. Clegg seems to be a bit of an ideologist and I do think he should get real. I mean he would give all current illegal immigrants amnesty to solve future illegal immigration, lol ok.

Yeah e didn't explain this very well. I am guessing their plan is to say "OK, when you've been here illegally for X amount of years, let's have a one time amnesty and after that we can really deal with the issue. Let's not ignore the illegal people that are already here and working" which seems a fair point...in fact, it was a point made by the, considered to be, more right wing LPF in Holland. You have to deal with the existing illegal immigrants as well as deal with the borders...that makes sense, no?

Yeah, illegal immigrants are a problem and a complex issue. But I don't see how Clegg saying he doesn't have an answer to that issue other than to wash his hands of it and start again is supposed to inspire much confidence in his ability to tackle other complex issues as PM. Labour's legacy of weak immigration policy is one million illegals in this country and a global reputation for being a soft touch. I don't see how telling everybody they can stay is supposed to address either the numbers or that reputation. Conservative immigration caps and swift deportation for illegals seems more effective on both counts. I think the liberal amnesty policy can only be a net economic loss for us at a time when the UK can ill afford to be so generous.

As for global status, Britain has always punched above it's weight on the international stage but I don't think we would retain that status in this changing world if we became Switzerland.

[rex008]

Now I'm not up to date with all the nuclear issues but why on Earth are all the numbers of weopons needed?

They still just make a big bang, when it comes down to it. Russia/US are big countries with lots of cities and military targets. You want to take them all out, you need a lot of nukes. You'd need several just to thoroughly do Moscow.

There was an idea during the cold war that if you could launch with short enough notice, you might be able to hit the other guy's launch sites before they launched and stop many getting through. Hence the escalation of numbers (just to make sure), and the spread on to planes and subs, rather than fixed launch sites. Current numbers are actually pretty small, historically. Peak US warheads was about 30000, IIRC.

[thetank]

On the amnesty issue. Other European countries have tried it and it isn't that effective, Italy have had 9 one time illegal immigrant amnestys. I don't know for sure that it's not the way to go, but all this "out of the hands of criminal fangs and into the hands of the taxpayer" stuff is unconvincing rhetoric for me.

Agree with above poster on nuclear detterent. It needs to be on subs, the deterrent is only effective if it's absolutely definite that opponent has no fold equity. If you're scraping that and moving to something that doesn't do the job as well, might as well have nothing at all.
I've more sympathy for the arguments of those who want to scrap trident and replace with a big load of nothing, than those who would scrap it and still spend money on something that's not nearly as good.